You've already said that not ALL blacks live the way you've described and yet you want to label them as a "people".

Holding INDIVIDUALS accountable for their actions is the way to go. Instead of going after some imagined homogeneous group of "people", why not hold each person accountable for him or herself?

Trust me, it doesn't suck. It may baffle you to learn that I am quite happy with my life and my views. I don't get my panties twisted much. It's nice.

Thanks for the links, dharma....but, according to some here, you're not supposed to believe that blacks and whites are any different from each other, even if you do happen to see, with your very own two eyes, more blacks than whites, shall we say "misbehaving". We're all equal.

Holding INDIVIDUALS accountable for their actions is the way to go. Instead of going after some imagined homogeneous group of "people", why not hold each person accountable for him or herself?

Well, when you and yours are actually willing to hold blacks accountable for their actions, perhaps we will. But when we see a large majority of blacks sucking for so long off the government teat, so much so that it becomes fodder for humor even to blacks themselves, as it has, it's hard to point a finger in specifics, rather than to wave a hand in generality.

Rightwinger: Ok, so please enlighten me on these differences you percieve...

In what ways are we not all equal?

Well, when you and yours are actually willing to hold blacks accountable for their actions, perhaps we will.

Me and mine? What the fuck? What is that you wish for me to do? Shall I join a law enforcement agency?

And here you are saying that if someone else doesn't do what's right (what you perceive as right), then you yourself aren't responsible for doing what's right. Interesting.

But when we see a large majority of blacks sucking for so long off the government teat, so much so that it becomes fodder for humor even to blacks themselves, as it has, it's hard to point a finger in specifics, rather than to wave a hand in generality.

Please PROVE that a MAJORITY of blacks are dependent on welfare.

Rightwinger: Ok, so please enlighten me on these differences you percieve... In what ways are we not all equal?

Tex, please....tell me you're just stroking me, here, and are really not this blind to the world. Several months ago, when I first came to JU, we got into a discussion about the inherent, if unofficial, race bias in welfare benefits. You didn't believe me when I said there was a definite bias (something I can't believe to this very day...you must be the only person in America not to know about it), and said you would look into it. I thought that doing so might open your eyes to some of the realities of modern life, but because you persist in your naivte, I can infer two things:

1. You did not "look into it" as you said you would, or
2. You looked into it and, not liking what you found since it didn't hold with your worldview, you used your bubble of naivte as a shield to explain it away and deny it.

I'd think either is a likely possibility.

Government programs, instituted by weepy-eyed liberals like "you and yours", and yes, Tex, in cases such as this you do lean decidedly to the left, have given blacks exclusive accesss to certain things, programs that whites do not have available to them, and, If you don't know that, that's your problem.
As George Orwell said in "Animal Farm"---"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."----blacks, by the virtue of government programs instituted under Great Society policies, have been granted the status of "more equal" than whites.

Please PROVE that a MAJORITY of blacks are dependent on welfare.

Okay, perhaps "majority" is to broad a term....how about "so large a portion"? Better?

You know, the actual point of my article was that it is becoming increasingly clear that the LA government is the responsible party in the post-Katrina disaster, but it's the comment about the black jerk in the MRE line that's seeming to have touched the biggest nerve. Why is that?

Rightwinger:

Tex, please....tell me you're just stroking me, here, and are really not this blind to the world.

What I see in you is a fundamental, down to the bone, prejudice against black people. You take advantage of every opportunity to lump blacks together into one entity and disparage them.

I can't change that. Nothing I have to say will penetrate your preconceived notions about black people.

I am not blind to the world. I simply view personal responsibility as just that...PERSONAL. I will not use an entire race as scapegoats for the actions of a few. I will not blame individuals for the actions of a few...or even for the actions of a majority.

Had Kerry been elected, how would you have felt being blamed for it? Even though you didn't vote for him, since the majority of the US did, it would be your fault as well. All the failed policies...all the scandals...everything...YOUR FAULT.

I could carry this into about a million different scenarios. The point is, individuals are not defined by the actions of those who share traits or skin color or last name or occupation, etc. with them. Individuals are defined by their own thoughts, words, and actions.

1. You did not "look into it" as you said you would, or 2. You looked into it and, not liking what you found since it didn't hold with your worldview, you used your bubble of naivte as a shield to explain it away and deny it. I'd think either is a likely possibility.

Actually, we've been over this once before. You made a claim based on anecdotal evidence. I did not believe your experience applied across the board. I DID NOT go calling the welfare office to ask them whether they are biased toward blacks. Your claim cannot be verified by me without a lot of time, effort, and access on my part.

You have not proven your claim. As it stands, it is your anecdotal observation and nothing more. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. And forgive me for assigning the burden of proof to you...the person who made the claim.

Government programs, instituted by weepy-eyed liberals like "you and yours", and yes, Tex, in cases such as this you do lean decidedly to the left, have given blacks exclusive access to certain things, programs that whites do not have available to them, and, If you don't know that, that's your problem.

You and yours has no bearing on this. I am not involved in policy making. Your attempt to pin some perceived great ill in American government on me (and my family?) is hollow.

I would really LOVE to see some proof that black Americans have EXCLUSIVE ACCESS to welfare and other programs. Don't claim something you can't prove.

As George Orwell said in "Animal Farm"---"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."----blacks, by the virtue of government programs instituted under Great Society policies, have been granted the status of "more equal" than whites.

Please elaborate on this. Have you been turned down for a job because a less-skilled black person was hired instead? Have your welfare benefits been denied and instead given to a black person? Has a college refused to admit you or give you a scholarship in favor of a black person?

Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder?

You know, the actual point of my article was that it is becoming increasingly clear that the LA government is the responsible party in the post-Katrina disaster, but it's the comment about the black jerk in the MRE line that's seeming to have touched the biggest nerve. Why is that?

Probably because the first comment (a bump) belonged to you, and it was bemoaning the MRE anecdote. You put the focus on that portion of your article.

PS - You may find me naive, but I can tell you this much...I've been through some very tragic and damaging circumstances in my life. I've also managed to overcome everything that's been thrown at me. I have a safe, healthy family, a comfortable lifestyle and a college degree. I've worked my ass off (in many different ways) for these things. I'd appreciate a little bit of respect.

Do you consider the military, which is a cross-section of the US population, a "bubble"?

Actually Tex I believe it is. That's because of the required mind set to be in the military in the first place. We (military) do not think like the greater portion of the populace.

As George Orwell said in "Animal Farm"---"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."----blacks, by the virtue of government programs instituted under Great Society policies, have been granted the status of "more equal" than whites. Please elaborate on this. Have you been turned down for a job because a less-skilled black person was hired instead? Have your welfare benefits been denied and instead given to a black person? Has a college refused to admit you or give you a scholarship in favor of a black person?

Hey Tex....RW is sort of right. Start by looking at "government" programs. You will find that to be even considered for the majority of them you need to be in a "minority". Which Afro-Americans "still" are considered as such. Look at the book on government give aways by Matthew Lesko and you see "exactly" what he's talking about.

What I see in you is a fundamental, down to the bone, prejudice against black people.

You see this in me only because I'm not afraid to tell you how I see it, as concerning the slanted playing field in race relations as they exist today.

Actually, we've been over this once before. You made a claim based on anecdotal evidence. I did not believe your experience applied across the board. I DID NOT go calling the welfare office to ask them whether they are biased toward blacks. Your claim cannot be verified by me without a lot of time, effort, and access on my part.

Sorry if we've touched on this before...I don't remember that particular exchange. If I'm stomping one more time on sacred cows, mea culpa.
As to the "looking into it"...I don't think it would do much good to simply call the welfare office one day and ask about their unofficial race bias, do you? No...it wouldn't. Ask the opinions of people you know. I think you'll be surprised at their responses.

You have not proven your claim. As it stands, it is your anecdotal observation and nothing more. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. And forgive me for assigning the burden of proof to you...the person who made the claim.

I don't have to prove something that everyone (except you, it seems) knows already.

You and yours has no bearing on this. I am not involved in policy making. Your attempt to pin some perceived great ill in American government on me (and my family?) is hollow.

"You and yours" being the weepy-eyed liberals and their cohorts (of which you are one...maybe both)

Please elaborate on this. Have you been turned down for a job because a less-skilled black person was hired instead? Have your welfare benefits been denied and instead given to a black person? Has a college refused to admit you or give you a scholarship in favor of a black person? Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder?

Personally, I have not, but I know several people who fell victim to Affirmative Action and racial quotas. One friend quit a very lucrative job with an airline after he found out his competition for a higher position, a black woman, was given a shorter, easier test than he was (the test was timed, you see).
Another family, friends of ours, were denied welfare benefits, after some friends, a black couple whose circumstances were actually slightly better, had gotten them.
Personally, I find this irritating; perhaps you don't.
These are personal anecdotes, of course, and I have no proof of them as you require it. I know they happened, though, and they deeply color my opinions of race-based programs and the people who receive and/or abuse them.

PS - You may find me naive, but I can tell you this much...I've been through some very tragic and damaging circumstances in my life. I've also managed to overcome everything that's been thrown at me. I have a safe, healthy family, a comfortable lifestyle and a college degree. I've worked my ass off (in many different ways) for these things. I'd appreciate a little bit of respect.

Tex, you have my respect, and always have. It's just the way you blind yourself that annoys me. I just don't understand how you can't know about the welfare thing...it's almost a part of this country's being, the American Experience, for cryin' out loud. Comedians joke about it, as I said. Black comedians!
How can you not know about it, unless you (figuratively speaking, of course) gouge out your eyes and refuse to see it, and scream loud enough to deafen yourself so you don't hear about it? By the way, these would both be considered trait of the Great American Liberal...heh-heh

drmiler...thanks for the support, but I think Tex will pretty much stay the way she is, no matter what we say to her....she kinda likes it in her little bubble, where everything is fair and balanced.

Comedians joke about it, as I said. Black comedians!

Chris Rock has a good routine about the differences between black folks and 'niggahs' (his terminology, not mine). "Black folks pay their bills. Niggahs don't. Black folks work hard. niggahs work hard at getting welfare. Black folks look after their children...niggahs think they deserve a medal for raising their own offspring". And, in his own words "the niggah's gots to go".

(Sorry if that offended, RW. I simply think it germane to the discussion)

Chris Rock has a good routine about the differences between black folks and 'niggahs' (his terminology, not mine). "Black folks pay their bills. Niggahs don't. Black folks work hard. niggahs work hard at getting welfare. Black folks look after their children...niggahs think they deserve a medal for raising their own offspring". And, in his own words "the niggah's gots to go". (Sorry if that offended, RW. I simply think it germane to the discussion)

---dharma


Not at all! I love Chris Rock...he tells it like it is, and he was right on target with this routine. i guess tex thinks jokes like this are just conjured up out of nothing, just for the pure,ridiculous, goofy laughs they get, huh?
Besides, how could I be offended by the term "niggahs"? After all, I'm fundamentally a racist SOB, with deep-seated predjuices against all blacks...or hadn't you heard?

drmiler:

Actually Tex I believe it is. That's because of the required mind set to be in the military in the first place. We (military) do not think like the greater portion of the populace.

I disagree. All sorts of people join the military, particularly the poor. There's no denying that those that excel in the military are of a particular mind set, but the people that join up for their first tour are quite diverse. And ability to thrive in a military environment is not dependent on race.

Start by looking at "government" programs. You will find that to be even considered for the majority of them you need to be in a "minority".

Could you provide links to some government programs that are offered only to minorities?

Rightwinger:

You see this in me only because I'm not afraid to tell you how I see it, as concerning the slanted playing field in race relations as they exist today.

I see you in this way because I've yet to see you offer a balanced opinion on anything relating to black Americans. Feel free to prove me wrong. I'd be happy to apologize.

Sorry if we've touched on this before...I don't remember that particular exchange.

Hahaha...you don't remember it? You just referenced it in one of your replies above.

As to the "looking into it"...I don't think it would do much good to simply call the welfare office one day and ask about their unofficial race bias, do you? No...it wouldn't. Ask the opinions of people you know. I think you'll be surprised at their responses.

Drmiler says it is official. You say it is unofficial. Drmiler's claim can be verified. Yours can't. If you feel there is a way to verify your claim, please do it.

And no, I'm not going to go asking around about welfare and social services in my neighborhood. While it's true that many military families qualify for government aid, there are few, if any, in my neighborhood who take advantage of those programs offered.

The families in my neighborhood, blacks included, are self-sufficient.

I don't have to prove something that everyone (except you, it seems) knows already.

Really? Everyone knows this? Everyone that YOU know knows this? Everyone who is a right winger knows this? Who's your everyone?

Oh, I know...it's because I don't live in the "real" world so my experiences and the people I know don't count. We're not a part of everyone. We're part of happy liberal sunshine land where children say yes ma'am and no ma'am and the ice cream man never runs over dogs and black people are contributing members of society and Soldiers never come home in flag-draped boxes.

"You and yours" being the weepy-eyed liberals and their cohorts (of which you are one...maybe both)

A) I'm not a part of any liberal collective. I don't contribute to any political party. I don't go to any sort of political meetings. My political views run a decent range. I am strong on crime and national defense and liberal on many social issues. Most true liberals would disagree with me on as many points as you do.

I have no cohorts. I'm not a part of any sort of political movement. I'm not involved in politics in any manner. I have personal views that I share on JU. That's as far as it goes.

I'd appreciate it if you would stop with the labeling and name calling. It's childish and not constructive.

One friend quit a very lucrative job with an airline after he found out his competition for a higher position, a black woman, was given a shorter, easier test than he was (the test was timed, you see).

And this was the policy for the airline? What is the name of the airline? Can you provide evidence that this is a widespread phenomenon? (As you can see, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that your anecdotal evidence is factual)

Can you provide evidence that this policy is common in the American workforce? (That is, providing different, and more lax, means of verifying how qualified a black worker is as compared to the testing of a white worker).

Just so you know, I am not a strong supporter of Affirmative Action.

However, what you are describing is not Affirmative Action, it is actual racism. It seems to me that you are implying that this racism is the secret status quo and that it is robbing white people of their ability to gain employment and handing out jobs to blacks who would not be worthy of a job otherwise.

Affirmative Action ONLY encourages an employer to choose a minority over a white person when their qualifications are equal, and similarly encourages an employer to choose a woman over a man when their qualifications are equal.

I don't think this is the best way to do things, but it is a far cry from what you're describing.

Another family, friends of ours, were denied welfare benefits, after some friends, a black couple whose circumstances were actually slightly better, had gotten them.

Are you implying that the black couple "stole" your friends' benefits, as if there were only one slot and the black couple got it because they were black? I think in this case, what appears on the surface to be one thing may be very different when you know the details.

There are many factors, private ones, that go into determining eligibility. Apparently, according to the criteria, the black couple met the requirements and your friends did not.

BTW, it's not ok for blacks to be on welfare, but it IS ok for your friends? Why the double standard?

Personally, I find this irritating; perhaps you don't.

I find racism irritating. If what you've described are truly cases of racism and injustice, then I do find them wrong and abhorrent.

I know they happened, though, and they deeply color my opinions of race-based programs and the people who receive and/or abuse them.

Well, I am accepting your word that these events took place. However, in both cases, the problem rests not with the black people, but with the agencies (airline, Dept. of Health and Human Services) who practiced the discrimination.

Tex, you have my respect, and always have.

It's hard to see that through all the labels and judgment you throw at me.

It's just the way you blind yourself that annoys me.

I don't blind myself. If you've watched my interactions with other here on JU, you will haven noticed that I am willing to admit when I am wrong. You have not provided any compelling evidence to convince me of your views. To you it might be common knowledge, but you live in a bubble as well. Most people do. You are surrounded by like-minded people who support and encourage your views. You can't see that. All you can see is that if someone doesn't agree with you or share your experiences, then they must be living the "wrong" life or be blind to how things "really are". Try stepping outside your biases.

I just don't understand how you can't know about the welfare thing...it's almost a part of this country's being, the American Experience, for cryin' out loud. Comedians joke about it, as I said. Black comedians!

It's a stereotype, rightwinger. The world does not conform to stereotypes. Individuals do not conform to stereotypes.

By the way, these would both be considered trait of the Great American Liberal...heh-heh

Again with that. In what way does that contribute to this debate?

but I think Tex will pretty much stay the way she is, no matter what we say to her....she kinda likes it in her little bubble, where everything is fair and balanced.

My bubble is anything but fair and balanced. I have dealt with heartbreak and struggle, particularly in the past year. My life hasn't always been fair. But I like to treat people the way I want them to treat me and I give people the benefit of the doubt, which is something I like extended to me as well.

I'm sorry that you feel these are not ideals worth holding onto.