And ya probably won't.

When you step that far beyond Bush, O'Reilly, Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, who do you find yourself standing out there with? Rightwinger!

And me.

Dr. Guy,

WRONGO

Osama has ordered and is therefore responsible for < 10,000 innocent civilians killed. Still a horror, but nowhere near as many as the 50,000-100,000+ GW has blown to bits in their beds. More still, it has taken Osama decades to kill a fraction of the people Bush has butchered in four years.

An interesting, On-Topic, article. I wonder how many such articles, such organizations, slip past rightwinger while he is wondering if they are building bombs. A shame we address American Muslims, that are far more apt to write articles like that than build bombs, by insulting them over and over as if they are somehow not one of us. It's shameful.

Dr. Guy, WRONGO Osama has ordered and is therefore responsible for < 10,000 innocent civilians killed. Still a horror, but nowhere near as many as the 50,000-100,000+ GW has blown to bits in their beds. More still, it has taken Osama decades to kill a fraction of the people Bush has butchered in four years.

Stop spewing the stupid inane talking points of your whacko leaders. IN a couple of words. PROVE IT.

You cannot, because it is and always was a lie.

Dr. Guy, WRONGO Osama has ordered and is therefore responsible for < 10,000 innocent civilians killed. Still a horror, but nowhere near as many as the 50,000-100,000+ GW has blown to bits in their beds. More still, it has taken Osama decades to kill a fraction of the people Bush has butchered in four years. Stop spewing the stupid inane talking points of your whacko leaders. IN a couple of words. PROVE IT. You cannot, because it is and always was a lie.

Depends on where you go to find it.

Here, Link">Link , it's estimated between 55,221 to 60,907 Iraqi casualties.

[link="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Iraq+war+casualties"]Link2

The thing is, we'll never know for sure how many were killed, it'll always be an estimation.

Peace, ~L

Noam Chomsky estimated that 200 Iraqi children a day were dying under the pre-war sanctions. Other articles I read estimated that a million Iraqi children were starving in 2000. There were lots of ludicrous numbers tossed around that people now forget, in favor of much smaller numbers that are supposed to make us feel just as bad.

Sadly, I remember those numbers. So when someone says "50,000" Iraqis, I think to myself, wow, that's a lot less than would have died had the sanctions continued for another 4 years...

I wonder how many such articles, such organizations, slip past rightwinger while he is wondering if they are building bombs. A shame we address American Muslims, that are far more apt to write articles like that than build bombs, by insulting them over and over as if they are somehow not one of us. It's shameful.

---Baker

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Baker....I agree with every word he said.

Now, if I had actually SAID that ALL Muslims were evil, this may have had more impact on my views.
I've never said that. YOU, Baker have said I said that...despite my repeated stating of the opposite. You ignore it because you, for some whacko reason, want to read hate and bigotry into it and paint me as a clueless nut and an anti- Muslim zealot.
Go back and re-read all of my responses, including those on the other thread you dissed. But this time, try REALLY READING THEM. Understand what I'm trying to say without injecting your own multiculturalist, PC crap.
Yes, I have said---many, many times---that I find the moderate, everyday 90% of Islam suspect because it does virtually nothing to oppose the 10% of the nutjobs. Strange how you ignore my stating of that fact, but when this guy says it, and how he understands why I'm suspicious, it's a huge deal. I say the same things, overall, but I'm a hater. He's a Muslim, though, so he can say it and get an attaboy from you. Geez.
Is it like the difference between a black guy saying "nigger" and a white guy saying it? Is that what it is? Multiculturalism......Diversity.

You're a lot farther out there than I'd thought, Baker.

And yes, I admit that much does "slip past" me....because I have a job. I work eight hours a day. Not much seems to get past you, though, does it?

I heard a great line today....I was telling a friend at work about the server error, and he asked what I was doing. I told him, and he said that "arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics....nobody ever really wins, and everyone who does it is retarded." Priceless.

"Now, if I had actually SAID that ALL Muslims were evil, this may have had more impact on my views. "

But you'll still stand behind your assertion that Mr Jasser's religion is a 'cancer'?

"And yes, I admit that much does "slip past" me....because I have a job."

But you don't seem to miss details of anti-muslim propaganda. Is it your "job" to seek that kind of thing out?

"Yes, I have said---many, many times---that I find the moderate, everyday 90% of Islam suspect because it does virtually nothing to oppose the 10% of the nutjobs. Strange how you ignore my stating of that fact, but when this guy says it, and how he understands why I'm suspicious, it's a huge deal. I say the same things, overall, but I'm a hater. He's a Muslim, though, so he can say it and get an attaboy from you. Geez."

Show me where he says that the 90% are "suspect". Show me where he says he wonders if people standing waiting for their kids are making bombs. Show me where he characterizes Islam as a "cancer".

You aren't just saying people need to speak out more, not by a long shot. If that was all you said, I could agree with you.

Such as:

"I won't backpeddle from my earlier position; I do think islam is a cancer....granted, my understanding of the faith itself is somewhat narrow, but Islam has brought chaos and death to pretty much all points of the compass, wherever it has cropped up. That's enough for me."

How many attacks in the US in the last 100 years that we've had mainstream, enabled Islam? How many of those were American Muslims without it being a coordinated attack by al Qaeda or someone else? How many?

So, frankly, the idea that Islam brings chaos and death "wherever it has cropped up" is ignorant and hateful, and I don't think for a moment that what you and Mr. Jasser are saying is the same thing. Not by a longshot.

This is, much less rather than more, what I wrote this morning.....


So, exactly how often am I going to have to use the terms "fundamentalist", "radical", "extremist", etc., in relation to Islam, before you PC pinheads will cop to the fact that nothing I've really applies to ALL Muslims?
I've said I think Islam itself is a cancer....this is what set Baker off. I dared to challenge his all-encompassing, all-seeing PC dunce/pinhead, multiculturalist opinion, and I refuse to back down in the face of it.
But, I do think it's a cancer. Everywhere in the world Islam has cropped up, violence and terror against non-Muslims has followed in some fashion. I won't even go into the Islamics penchant for religious/political oppression.
You guys go ahead and keep on supporting them....understand and accept them all the way into your homes. Because that's where they'll be, someday, unless a stand is taken. Soon.

Live your life seeing terrorists waiting for their kids at every elementary school, the news whispering dark prophesies to you. After all, you represent the *cough*Ward*cough* "Churchills", and the world always remembers fondly people who considers other people's beliefs a "cancer". All those muslim "little eichmanns" that are responsible for all the world's ills just because you imagine it to be so.

I live my life in fear of what I see coming. What you deny and ignore because it's beyond the scope of your self-imposed rosy worldview. You're so blind, and only because you wish to be. You will not...you utterly refuse...to see what's coming> And when it comes, you'll still deny that it's really what it is.
I'll know, though, and so will everyone who agrees with me. And we'll know that it was PC dunces like you that let us down and sold us out, all because you don't want to be wrong.
You accuse me of lumping all of Islam in with the terrorists. You don't see, however, that you more or less lump the terrorists in with the rest of Islam; they're just another aspect of the faith. Just misundertstood, is all, right? It all comes to the same thing.

Clearly, you haven't seen "Gangs of New York". I'd rather be a multiculturalist than someone who's ideology is so disgusting that its a crime in much of the western world.

---Baker

Oh, you mean like in Europe....an entire continent of multiculturalist pinheads falling all over themselves happily, if desperately, trying to find a way to assimilate...but ultimately simply accommodate....millions of hardheaded, unwilling Muslims. Yeah....sounds great.
So, then....I guess you support the squelching of speech and ideas you don't like? My, how Islamo-Fascist of you, Baker. Appropriate, though.

P.S. If you are so interested in Churchill you might read a bit and learn what the man did, and what he DIDN'T do. He took great pains to not become what he was fighting against. You could learn something about that. Your "90% of Islam" argument sounds a lot more like Ward than Winston.

---Baker

Winston was still willing to stand against the enemy he knew was coming to attack his people. You are not. You want to understand them and accept them. Winston Churchill understood threat, and what to do about it. Ward Churchill isn't worthy of carrying the man's shoes, much less sharing the name.

Fine, we'll call you Randall, spreading your message of hate for the whole world to listen. Only those of a bad disposition will buy it and follow you.

---San Cho

Or maybe you're the Trashcan Man, crazy as hell and bound to kill the lot of 'em.

---San Cho

  Well, Flagg was a pretty cool villain...always smiling, always jocular....a demon in denim.

You'd compare me to Trashcan Man? Ooohhh....yeeeahhh....Donald Merwin Elbert.
"Ci-a-bo-la! Ci-a-bo-la! Bumpty-bumpty-BUMP!" "My life for you!"

I think you're forgetting, though, that Trashy was ultimately the facillitator of Flagg's demise. In a fit of pique, he destroyed the Walkin' Dude's war machine, and, in attempted repayment, brought him a nuclear warhead fresh off the missle, which exploded, taking Flagg and all his evil minions with him. Yeah, I guess I could kinda be like Trashy.

I've always been partial to Glen Bateman, though; a thoughtful, peaceable kind of guy. Never too comfortable with the whole adversarial situation in which the Free Zone found itself, he nonetheless understood that certain steps had to be taken to preserve their community and freedoms. Unlike you. And Baker. And too many other self-deluding eggheads on here to count. Try again.

M-O-O-N, that spells terrorist.

---Baker

It also spells what I'm shooting you right now.    

Later.

'I live my life in fear of what I see coming. What you deny and ignore because it's beyond the scope of your self-imposed rosy worldview. You're so blind, and only because you wish to be."

You can expect the same kind of dire things from other groups as well. Eventually SOMEONE is going to cause great death and mayhem, there can be little doubt. Not all of them are Muslim, though. For decades we heard that it would be the communists. Sure, there is a threat of a catastrophic attack from radical, wacko Muslims, just like there was a threat of nuclear war then.

As the cold war showed us, though, living in fear of an shadowy threat for decades gets us nothing but witchhunts and an eventual, ugly backlash. If you want to enable hateful, radical Muslims by validating THEIR paranoid predictions about us, keep right on doing what you are doing.

" Unlike you. And Baker. And too many other self-deluding eggheads on here to count. Try again."

Delusions are about seeing things that aren't there, believing things that aren't reality. I openly admit the problems we have with radical Islam. I openly acknoledge that there are dire threats from a narrow slice of the Muslim world.

I refuse, however, to see threats where there aren't any. I refuse to impose such on fellow Americans that have lived peacefully, Koran in hand, Mosques in our neighborhoods, for 100 years. I would be giving in to paranoid delusions if I risked validating the hateful prophesies of the people who really are threats.

I refuse, however, to see threats where there aren't any. I refuse to impose such on fellow Americans that have lived peacefully, Koran in hand, Mosques in our neighborhoods, for 100 years. I would be giving in to paranoid delusions if I risked validating the hateful prophesies of the people who really are threats.

Then how come we never hear them speaking out forcably against the 10%?

I'm not a follower...I'm the captain of my own ship...I have no need for a leader.

That's good. I have no need for a leader as well. But if you look at God as nothing more than a leader then your totally missing the point. First He is a friend. And friends are good.

Because...if you can...its the right thing to do...you don't need religion or any other relationship to know the right thing to do.

Then why don't we see more of it happening in the private sector. I don't really know if this is true, but I suspect the bulk of "missionary type" work is done by short and long term teams with a religious affiliation. There are all kinds of things that are "the right thing to do" but I don't do them. But my life, with faith built in, suddenly takes the focus off myself and places it on others. Not just in anjother country but in my home town as well. I can tell you, truthfully, many good things have come from a relationhip with Christ. It changed me and took my life from headed for destruction to a place of peace where I can help others as others have helped me. It wasn't simple or easy but nothing worth doing ever is simple or easy. I don't mean to be harsh...but if your saying that all things that come from a religious background are bad...then you are simply close-minded. And maybe you have good reason to be...But I hope you can sometime open up to the truth I see everyday.

Trust me ToeJo...I never spend one second actually looking for this stuff.

I don't doubt it...But maybe we should work...really work at finding the good in all things.

" Then how come we never hear them speaking out forcably against the 10%?"

I do. Just like the article I posted. I wonder how many of them you miss? I wonder how many you missed after 9/11. My personal feeling is you don't see it because you are only interested in the stuff that backs up your biases.