When "peace loving" muslims...if there is such a thing...stand up and aggressively/publicly/vocally denounce terrorism and the terrorist killing in the name of their religion...then people just might listen to what they have to say. Otherwise they will just get tossed into the pot with all the others.

God, man....where have you been....if you haven't already seen that?

As much as is humanly possible...I do NOT 'see' Muslims....I see PEOPLE.

30-odd years ago, my first Boss was President of the Victorian Turkish-Islamic society...and was TV-Interviewed over the then current Cypriot fighting ...while at the same time my brother in-law was being contacted by the Greek Consulate trying to press-gang him into going over there to 'engineer'/fight.  It never occured to me he was anything other than just-another-Aussie...[though his name was a bugger to spell - Erdoghan Djoumayia - no 'Fred Smith' there]....

'Islamic', 'Greek', 'Turkish', 'Iraqi', 'Black', 'White', 'Christian', 'American' et al are DESCRIPTORS......but there is no need nor reason for them to be DISCRIMINATORS...[nor should there be].

Last I heard, Islam was a relatively young religion.....so they probably learned from prior bad example how NOT to treat each other / others....

 

I'm a bit 'sad' for Rightwinger, though.  He seems to confuse communicative eloquence with being inalienably 'right'.

Thanks for posting here, Baker.....and here, I thought you were done with me. I used to think better of you, too.

I know no one wants to listen to "hateful" people like me, but I know what I see and hear.
I get it that lots and lots and lots of Muslims are moderate, "just folks" types....it's the nuts, the ones who are gathering a growing war chest to come after us who bother me.
Well, that, and the fact that the "moderate just folks" are pretty much letting the zealots co-opt and speak for their faith as a whole and aren't doing a whole lot to oppose that growing war chest. That's why I distrust.
I won't backpeddle from my earlier position; I do think islam is a cancer....granted, my understanding of the faith itself is somewhat narrow, but Islam has brought chaos and death to pretty much all points of the compass, wherever it has cropped up. That's enough for me.
I hear how the Fundies want to establish a worldwide Islamic empire....can they do it? I don't know. I don't care.
What I do know is the fact that they're perfectly willing to kill millions in the effort, and that's what I worry about. Iran, a nation governed by Fundies who want to destroy both the US and Israel, will soon have nukes. And that doesn't bother anyone?

There is a war coming. Western Civilization and Islamic Fundamentalism. I believe that firmly. I don't know when, or how, it will manifest itself, I don't know who all will actually be participating.
I do wonder about the "moderate" Islamics....a people who will go rioting in the streets in violent mobs to protest any minor insult, slight or percieve affront, yet somehow find nothing so wrong with these crazed zealots doing what they do, all in the name of their "Religion of Peace", that they'd have to do something about it.
I wonder about them.

Go ahead, call ma hater. A bigot. A fearmonger. I don't care. Whatever I am, I'm not the one calling for the deaths of anyone, especially in the name of my God. They are.

God, man....where have you been....if you haven't already seen that? As much as is humanly possible...I do NOT 'see' Muslims....I see PEOPLE.

Honestly Jafo...I've seen very few referring to themselves as a muslim aggressively/publicly/vocally denouncing terrorism or the terrorist killing in the name of their religion. Maybe in Aussie land, but not here. Granted, I have a heard a few blurbs here and there and read comments where "a few" have come forward...but not to a degree for me to think they are "really" interested in showing people a real difference between themselves and the ones doing the actual killing. It was more of a whimper than a stand...more of a...they were being inconvenienced or exposed by the actions of their co-believers causing the violence...which yesterday were they're brothers in belief...but now all of a sudden they would like to distance themselves.

And I also see people as people...not as any particular religion/belief or whatever, until they become vocal about it and/or attempt to impose their beliefs on me. Until then I couldn't care less about what they believe. I personally don't believe in invisible entities/beings/gods. And I certainly don't go around looking for these people to harass/label/expose. I would much prefer they kept their beliefs to themselves. But...if someones going to apply a certain belief to themselves or subscribe to some god...they need to have the balls to stand up for themselves and not whimper when they are called on those beliefs or their religion comes into focus by the media.

There are far to many people subscribing to religions...but only parts of the religion...I believe this but not that...I believe during the week but not on weekends. It is a whole religion...not to be sliced and diced or tailor made to fit. If some part of the religion offends you...find a new religion. So its no wonder that people will label them to the whole religion since there is no way of knowing what particular parts they have chosen to believe or subscribe to.

Personally I find the whole behavior psychotic. Once I reached the age of reason I rid myself of religion.

What I do know is the fact that they're perfectly willing to kill millions in the effort, and that's what I worry about. Iran, a nation governed by Fundies who want to destroy both the US and Israel, will soon have nukes. And that doesn't bother anyone?

Iran is actually surprisingly well-led. Since the mid-80s they've hardly put a foot wrong in international diplomacy, right up to the point where the US labelled them one of the Great Satans. Even since then they've acted only in admittedly aggressive self-defence. If you're talking about the statements of the president I suggest you read up on the Iranian constitution. He really doesn't have much power, certainly nowhere near as much as your own elected dictator. I wouldn't fret too much about him.

As for being 'perfectly willing to kill millions' when has this happened? Even the most radical evaluation of yearly terrorist victims (including Iraq and Sudan casualties) numbers only in the hundreds of thousands. Where are you getting the figure of millions?

Well, that, and the fact that the "moderate just folks" are pretty much letting the zealots co-opt and speak for their faith as a whole and aren't doing a whole lot to oppose that growing war chest. That's why I distrust.

Certainly the US' allies aren't doing a lot, but that's what you get when you decide to ally with people who should be your worst enemies. More moderate Islamic states like Malaysia, Indonesia and several Gulf monarchies have been helpful if not instrumental in global anti-terror efforts.

Whatever I am, I'm not the one calling for the deaths of anyone, especially in the name of my God.

You do actually, and it's something you say quite regularly. You seem to have absolutely no sympathy for collateral damage, let alone actual murdering terrorists. From what I've gleaned of you as a man you have no problems with the deaths of innocent civilians just so long as Americans are saved. At least extremists support murder for a god; you support it so long as a fellow citizen is protected.

I wouldn't go claiming the moral high ground if I was you, cos at best you're on a hillock.

If all these religions spent half as much time actually practicing they're so-called peaceful religions they wouldn't have time for violence.

I do...everyday. You have no idea what you are speaking about. I watch "religious" people everyday help thier fellow man. I see my local church help others in every possible way. Doing things many would never consider doing. Just because people with a microphone and a religious stance stand up and smear my faith or the faith of others doesn't negate the work my fellow "faithful" friends do everyday.

You've simply bought what the media sold you. Hate! Step out of the TV and look around. There are people of faith all around you that would help you. Even after you spit on them.

I know...I'm one of them.

I do...everyday. You have no idea what you are speaking about. I watch "religious" people everyday help thier fellow man. I see my local church help others in every possible way. Doing things many would never consider doing. Just because people with a microphone and a religious stance stand up and smear my faith or the faith of others doesn't negate the work my fellow "faithful" friends do everyday. You've simply bought what the media sold you. Hate! Step out of the TV and look around. There are people of faith all around you that would help you. Even after you spit on them. I know...I'm one of them.

---Toe Jo

Well said.

Iran is actually surprisingly well-led. Since the mid-80s they've hardly put a foot wrong in international diplomacy, right up to the point where the US labelled them one of the Great Satans. Even since then they've acted only in admittedly aggressive self-defence

---cacto

You would say this; it's an Islamic totalitarian regime that's gunning for world power status. This means, in its plan, that the US and Israel have got to go. You probably see little wrong in this, too. Sooner or later, they'd get to Australia, too.
That would be okay with you, though...you got people, Islamic friends, inside, that'll vouch for you, right? Oh, well, they'll let you live,then, I'm sure. Whatever.
Thank God the Saudis are dropping the cost of their oil; it's purposely hurting Iran's economy, and today they announced a temporary halt to nuclear research/production. No money.

You do actually, and it's something you say quite regularly. You seem to have absolutely no sympathy for collateral damage, let alone actual murdering terrorists. From what I've gleaned of you as a man you have no problems with the deaths of innocent civilians just so long as Americans are saved. At least extremists support murder for a god; you support it so long as a fellow citizen is protected. I wouldn't go claiming the moral high ground if I was you, cos at best you're on a hillock.

----Cacto

If we worried unceasingly about collateral damage, your Aussie ass would be speaking Japanese right now.

To lesser degrees, sure. Go poll average Americans and ask them if they think Islam is a "cancer" or if they wonder whether the cab driver is building bombs in his workshop. How many do you think feel strongly enough to admit it out loud, much less broadcast it to the world on their blog? Nope, Rightwinger's opinions are marginal at best. Sure, people are drawn toward them, everyone has twinges of them, but few allow themselves to be ruled by them.

---Baker

You can say this, yet on my other thread, I think it was, you pretty much accused me of cowardice because I didn't have the guts to act on my beliefs, and they do. I'm not afraid to speak my mind, if I feel it's something worth saying.

I see what I see, Baker....and if that puts me in opposition to a prideful, self-righteous, arrogant, intellectual elitist who lives to cast scorn and drip gobs of dismissive sarcasm on those who strongly disagree with him, so be it.
The time will come when you'll see that I'm right. You won't admit it when it happens, of course; you'll find some way to rationalize it all....but you'll know I was right.

You know those women at the bus stop...those happy, smiling, Westernized women you so admire.....they're sluts. Sluts and whores, who deserve to be stoned to death for their Western dress and style. For daring to show their flesh; for not covering their faces; for wearing makeup and jewelry. Whores.....and their husbands? They deserve death, too, for allowing it.
That's not me talking, Baker. That's the good, noble, peaceful people you want to understand and relate to. They no doubt understand you; they understand that, for all your high talk, you're nothing more than a fool....a useful idiot. But when/if the time comes, you'll die right along with me and Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. Because we're not Muslims, nd they hate us without reason. If I do hate them, at least I have a reason. They want to kill me.

Ever read "The Stand" by Stephen King? I think I'm gonna start calling you "Harold".

Rightwinger!

---LW

Thanks, LW....good to see you.

If the insinuation here is that Rightwinger has 'marginalized' himself, I'd have to disagree. His opinions on the matter are shared by many, you see them every day right here on JU, Baker, and you've been having the exact same argument with every single one of them.

---LW

Baker is just pissed because I've refused to bow to his greatness. He comes in with his touchy-feely stuff, I shove it back and give him mine....round and round it goes. I've refused to simply nod my head and say he was right, and that irks him to no end. I also refuse him his fix of "attaboys". That REALLY gets him.

If I randomly meet a Muslim on the street I don't think twice about them. Because I"m a math kind of guy. Most people are good people. But when looking at the world, as a whole, I think there is something wrong with Islam as it is practiced in many places because, for whatever reason, it seems to breed more than its share of people who want to commit horrific violence in its name

---Draginol

think we're talking past each other. There have been violent religions movements in Christianity as well. I don't think Christianity is as easily taken as a political doctrine as the Koran is, but it's happened. The difference is that the crazy Christians out there are not just few in number but have low capability. By contrast, the crazy Islamic sect is pretty large. Remember the whole survey thing where in many Islamic countries up to half the people saw cases where murdering innocent civilians was justified to "defend Islam"? What causes that?

--Draginol

Amen, Brother Ben, though I do wonder, sometimes, just in the back of my mind. I've known some Muslims; they were good people. But I still have to wonder. We keep hearing about " terror cells" of them. I don't know.
Good to see you, too, by the way.

You know....all those "moderate", "good" Muslims we keep hearing about; the so-called 90% of Islam.....why don't they stand up and be counted among the opposition to Islamic extremism and violence?
I heard Glenn Beck on the radio today; he said that they're afraid. Afraid of what might happen to them and their families if they stand up and be counted. That they'll be killed.
Come on.....all of them? The whole 90%? Okay, well....let's discount the ones serving in the US military now, and maybe the few who go on TV and say what an attrocity Islamic violence is. I'll give them a pass. But the other...say, 89%? They're all afraid? Of the 10%? Hmmmm.
Well, I got news for'em...if they don't stand up soon and speak out, if they don't take a stand, it won't matter. Sooner or later, the 10% is going to come gunning for them anyway....because they're not Muslim enough. That's when Baker's women at the bus stop will get what's coming to them. Islamic extremism is growing....deny it all you want, ignore it. It won't go away. A London Times poll of British Muslim teens found a growing trend toward an admiration of Fundamentalist Islamic ideals and law.
An Australian---are you listening cacto?---cleric called for a jihad against any who would oppose the rise of an Islamic "superstate"---consisting of all 57(?) Islamic nations united under one leader. Dismiss him now....but onece the seed is planted, stuff like this grows like a weed.

I agree with Draginol that sooner or later, Radical Islam is going to do something that'll make 9/11 look like a walk in the park. I dread that day, because I know it's coming. I've seen it for 30 years. That's why I write what I write.

I'd love to get to all of this, but there just isn't time. Thanks to all for the posts. I'll be in and out.

Sorry---this should have been above.

Real news should 'give you pause', true stories should 'give you pause', world events should 'give your pause', but a dramatic/action show on FOX 'gives you pause'? Scary.

---sViz

I didn't say it would, or does....I simply said that groups like CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations)---a group that has never renounced its ties to terror groups, might be afraid it would. Don't shoot the messenger.

By the by----Last I looked, I noted that no one has bothered to rebutt my posts on those good, noble, peaceful Muslims butchering Christians in East Africa. Baker? cacto?

"You know those women at the bus stop...those happy, smiling, Westernized women you so admire.....they're sluts. Sluts and whores, who deserve to be stoned to death for their Western dress and style. For daring to show their flesh; for not covering their faces; for wearing makeup and jewelry. Whores.....and their husbands? They deserve death, too, for allowing it. That's not me talking, Baker. That's the good, noble, peaceful people you want to understand and relate to."

No, that's the ultra-fundamentalists that are a tiny minority of Muslims around the world. Not that you'd differentiate, mind you, because you'd be sitting there wondering whether or not they are building bombs without even asking if they are Muslims or not, much less educating yourself on what they really believe.

You're a frightened, clueless person who is deathly afraid of anything that doesn't justify your hate. It is much easier for you to hate other people than to find out you are what you are. If you look at the truth of the situation, you'd have to re-adjust your definition of yourself, and it would be ugly.

You call me Harold, fine. I'll call you Bill the Butcher. I'll live in optimism, and you live in your paranoia and hate. Eventually, 5 or 10 or 20 years, something like you might describe could happen. Then you can sit in the ashes and think about how happy you were during all the time you wasted.

Or, you never know, nothing may ever happen worthy of your prophesy. Then you can sit in your rest home and think about how you bleached your thoughts black for all those years, breathing hate. Sick people make their own hell.

Baker...I know you enjoy a good stoush just for the sake of venting a spleen....but really, can't you find an opponent up on a similar level of the evolutionary chain to yourself?

No, that's the ultra-fundamentalists that are a tiny minority of Muslims around the world. Not that you'd differentiate, mind you, because you'd be sitting there wondering whether or not they are building bombs without even asking if they are Muslims or not, much less educating yourself on what they really believe.

---Baker

Typically for you, Baker, you miss the point. The sad part is that it's simply because it's not a point you agree with, so you dismiss it entirely.

You're a frightened, clueless person who is deathly afraid of anything that doesn't justify your hate. It is much easier for you to hate other people than to find out you are what you are. If you look at the truth of the situation, you'd have to re-adjust your definition of yourself, and it would be ugly.

---Baker

And it's much easier for you to just accept them and their views, all without question. What's the difference? The difference is that I'll have a better chance of survival than you. I might be a bigot in your eyes, but better a live bigot than a dead useful idiot.
Take the high road, Baker, but be careful. Sometimes taking the high road just makes you a better target.

You call me Harold, fine. I'll call you Bill the Butcher.

Clearly, you've never read "The Stand".

5 or 10 or 20 years, something like you might describe could happen. Then you can sit in the ashes and think about how happy you were during all the time you wasted.

---Baker

Time spent trying to warn PC, multiculturalist dunces like you? That's not wasted. I'm doing you a favor. If you dismiss me....well, Churchill was dimissed too, for years and years. I can live with it.

If anything, it'll be you sitting in the ashes thinking what an idiotic, duped jerk you've been. But then....nah...probably not. It would never occur to you to doubt yourself.

Sick people make their own hell.

---Baker

And PC, Multiculturalist dunces allow it to come without a fight.

"And it's much easier for you to just accept them and their views, all without question. What's the difference? The difference is that I'll have a better chance of survival than you. I might be a bigot in your eyes, but better a live bigot than a dead useful idiot."

Where have I heard that one before? There are militias all over the US that spout the same kind of filth. They crouch in their little bomb shelter basements and make their little videos they sell to other hateful people, preaching to the choir. Different targets though... well, I hope. I assume your biases here are exclusive to Muslims.

Clearly, you've never read "The Stand"."

No, I have. I simply know that for every person that is open-minded (read: "misled") there will be masses of people like you that embrace hate and live bitter, empty lives because of it. Horde your guns, move to Idaho, warn people about whatever "them" is scaring you into a girlish frenzy.

Live your life seeing terrorists waiting for their kids at every elementary school, the news whispering dark prophesies to you. After all, you represent the *cough*Ward*cough* "Churchills", and the world always remembers fondly people who considers other people's beliefs a "cancer". All those muslim "little eichmanns" that are responsible for all the world's ills just because you imagine it to be so.

Clearly, you haven't seen "Gangs of New York". I'd rather be a multiculturalist than someone who's ideology is so disgusting that its a crime in much of the western world. You're just the other end of the fundamentalist spectrum from the Muslims you despise. People that warn that "they" are coming to get you if a 'solution' isn't found soon.

P.S. If you are so interested in Churchill you might read a bit and learn what the man did, and what he DIDN'T do. He took great pains to not become what he was fighting against. You could learn something about that. Your "90% of Islam" argument sounds a lot more like Ward than Winston.

Clearly, you've never read "The Stand".

Fine, we'll call you Randall, spreading your message of hate for the whole world to listen. Only those of a bad disposition will buy it and follow you.

Me, I'd pick Abigail anyday.

we'll call you Randall,

Or maybe you're the Trashcan Man, crazy as hell and bound to kill the lot of 'em.

M-O-O-N, that spells terrorist.