Lucas, I guess I misunderstood your post; I apologize for getting so upset. It happens to the best of us, no worries.

And so, you go on to ignore everything else I wrote.

And no, it wasn't "total bullshit" in the pre-Civil War days. There literally were fistfights on the floor of the Senate over the issue of State's Rights--which is what the Civil War was really about, not slavery, despite what the lefties in the Dept. of Re-Education teach these days. The state reps worked very hard for years to hash it out before the Secession in 1861 finally led to the war.

Oh wait, are you going to tell us Hitler would have been talked out of it as well? I believe he couldve, again, if we had the right chips.

Are you totally ignorant of history? Or just trying to be stupid. Have you ever heard of Neville Chamberlain?

You really are just plain ignorant and stupid! Gawd! A wall has a better grasp of history!

Lucas answer was so stupid, JoeUser had to repeat my answer twice to bring some sanity back to this thread.

I'm actually going to cross the political line and say that war is indeed necessary. Yes, I agree with conservatives...oooh, I'm a bad liberal.

Diplomacy works when both parties want it to work. You see...if I try talking to a hungry bear, no matter what I say that son of a bitch is going to try to eat me. If I have a gun, I'm going to shoot the damn thing. Same goes for war...when your enemy is determined to wipe you off the face of the planet or at the very least become your overlord, then no matter how many angry letters you send, you're fucked if you don't fight.

End of story.

~Zoo

I have news for you....diplomacy only works if BOTH sides are reasonable and amenable to acheiving a solution. When you have people, especially fanatics, who do not wish to negotiate, in good faith, on any playing field, level or otherwise, it will not work. FundamentalistIslamics---and please note that I did not use the generic term "Muslims", meaning all of them---(including those in power in Iran who will very, very soon have the means to build at least two nuclear bombs a month) want us dead. Also, their faith sees it as a virtue to deceive infidels. Negotiation with them is pointless. All you can do is kill them and work at keeping them away from home and hearth. End of story.

Granted, I concede that sometimes diplomacy won't work. It saddens me that it comes to that, but...i guess that's life, reality,etc...

Understood, and I do sympathize. My father was a moderately combative alocoholic who, when I was 14, accused me of being gay because I wasn't a star athelete and hadn't had a girlfriend yet. Took me years to get over that, and to forgive him, but I did, and as he got older, things slowly changed and got much better between us. When he died, all the old, long-broken fences were mended. As things proceed in your situation, and though I admit that I know little of that situation, I can say with some certainty that they will improve for you, too. However, a familial conflict is not a proper analogy for the situation in which the nation presently finds itself. I seriously doubt the person in question wants to kill you and your progeny for no good reason other than the fact that you exist and they don't like you. Or to subjugate what remains under their system of faith and law.

My step-father was an excessive alcoholic, a hateful man who mentally, physically, emotionally, and sexually abused me. He got to the point many times where he'd start choking me, so...i guess that counts somewhat. It did to me at the time. Frankly, I don't know if i can ever forgive him, in a way...it's a lot easier to not forgive him, but...that's another piece of history for another day.

Well, let me say this: no Germans-AMERICANS were interned during WW2; German POWs, yes. Now, the Japanese-Americans, called "Nissei", were interned, but then, it was the Japs who drew first blood and attacked us directly, and took American lives, not the Germans. This created a level of anti-Japanese hysteria that equalled the anti-German hysteria in WW1. they were seen as spies and possible saboteurs. Also, let's face it; Japanese were easier to pick out of a crowd than Germans, which made it much easier to round them up. To their credit, thousands of them signed up for military service, were sent to Europe, and became the most-decorated division in the ENTIRE WAR. Of any nation. They did this to prove their loyalty to their country and to defend it and its freedoms. They understood what was a stake, and wanted to help out; unlike many people (ahemLucasahem) today. As a side note, when I see thousands of American "moderate" Muslims stampeding toward, and crowding into, military recruitment centers, volunteering to defend their country and their religion from their zealot brethren, then I'll feel a lot better about them.

Hmmm, my apologies. I thought there were german-americans that were in camps of some sort.

Anywho, can you justify the internment of japanese americans? Can you really, morally justify it?

The fact that they haven't all gone on suicide rampages is enough for me. *shrugs* Whatever floats your boat though dude.

You're free to feel that way; I don't. if I had time, I'd go into it in detail, but right now I can't. Let me just say three words: Gun Control Laws.

I'm not that type of liberal. In fact, I'm for gun rights. I feel that everyone has the right to bear arms, but only when they use that right to harm others - then their right is forfeited.

I'm not the type that is going to tell you what is right for you, or the like. I actually figure you know what you want, and what your rights are. I'm not a...dicator like liberal.

You know, I love it that the lefties who posted here all seemed to love the first paragraph or so, when I was talking about giving up. They really liked that. The US would fail, be knocked down a peg or two, and nothing would make them hapopier. I don't get it. More later.

I'm not liking it, not at all. I admit that the US can be arrogant at times, i mean why wouldn't that happen...we're the lone superpower, and power does go to the head. Still, i dont want to see our country get screwed, i want it to grow and prosper so i, and others can raise families in a good, or at least decent working nation.

Are you totally ignorant of history? Or just trying to be stupid. Have you ever heard of Neville Chamberlain? You really are just plain ignorant and stupid! Gawd! A wall has a better grasp of history!

No, I'm not. Yes, I have heard of him. You go right ahead and insult me, I'm not going to retaliate.

I've read a lot about history, but i still believe it could've happened, but..it didn't, and it is in the past. So, lets move on, eh?

Learn from things, and just move the hell on.

And so, you go on to ignore everything else I wrote.

I'm not ignoring, I was busy, I'm coming down to the wire here with classes. I've been giving your comments some thought as well, as much as i could spare. Okay? My apologies.

From what I've read, there was little talking, and mostly total bull shit. It was, again - as i see it today - all "my way or the high way," it happened then, and it happens now.

JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA!

ROFLMFAO!

You obviously haven't read anything about the Civil War, or what you have read is pure, unadulterated bullshit. Next reading assignment, when you're finished with 1776 - Go get any Civil war book by Alan Jones - he's one of the country's leading historians on the Civil war. Then you'll see just how helpful "diplomacy" would've worked during the Civil War.

Heh heh heh. Funny stuffs.

Oh wait, are you going to tell us Hitler would have been talked out of it as well? I believe he couldve, again, if we had the right chips.

I'm curious, what might those chips have been? Offer up a few more countries? Tell him that if he stops his goal to conquer the world that we'll spend more money trading with his country?

You can say all you want that there must have been some diplomatic solution, but I don't see one, and if you can't see one either, I don't see how you can put any stock into that belief, or expect anyone else to do so.

It seems to me that the only approach to one whose goal is total dominion(over pizza toppings - bonus points if you know this reference) is to make them know that the costs of fighting you are too great. I know of only two ways to do so. One is to remove the means of making war, and the other is an excessive display of force that demoralizes the opposing force and displays to the leaders that defeating you is impossible.

Anywho, can you justify the internment of japanese americans? Can you really, morally justify it?

Errrmmm, Why? The person responsible for it was a liberal (I will not say like you as at least he had some sense). I think it is YOUR job to morally justify it.

No, I'm not. Yes, I have heard of him. You go right ahead and insult me, I'm not going to retaliate.

Wrong! You already tried to insult me (Asshole anyone?)! Oh, how I love your bobbing and weaving! I am not the one that started the insults, and I have not insulted you. Calling a dog a dog is not an insult. Calling you stupid is not an insult as you plainly lack a grasp of history or facts and have the outlook of a rabbit. That is about to be turned into hassenpfeffer.

I'm actually going to cross the political line and say that war is indeed necessary. Yes, I agree with conservatives...oooh, I'm a bad liberal

---Zoo

Not bad, just smarter than the average.  

Diplomacy works when both parties want it to work. You see...if I try talking to a hungry bear, no matter what I say that son of a bitch is going to try to eat me. If I have a gun, I'm going to shoot the damn thing. Same goes for war...when your enemy is determined to wipe you off the face of the planet or at the very least become your overlord, then no matter how many angry letters you send, you're fucked if you don't fight.

---Zoo

Good analogy....very well put. Ninny (or "Bela", as Limbaugh calls her) Pelosi and Jackass Murtha need to see this post.

Frankly, I don't know if i can ever forgive him, in a way...it's a lot easier to not forgive him, but...that's another piece of history for another day.

---Lucas

"To err is human, to forgive Divine." Grudges can burn you up over time; make you bitter and hateful. I've seen it happen many times. Besides, who's really being hurt by your bad feelings, you or him?
It's always best to work at forgiveness. Harder, yes, but then....nothing worth doing is ever, ever easy or quick to accomplish.

Now, I know this comment doesn't really jibe with what I've written, but please realize that there is a big difference between personal forgiveness of someone who has wronged you, and advocating the use of force or violence in standing against a threat of mass aggression.
I do pray for my "enemies" but understand that the Islamic Fundies calling for my death and the deaths of my friends and family are just as much my enemies as people I know personally, and even moreso (and, as a Christian, I understand that I really only have one Enemy....the others are just....obstacles and irritants that Enemy puts here and there to annoy me and bring me down in moments of weakness).
My personal "enemies" don't want me and mine dead. At least I hope not, 'cause they're a lot closer, and I would like very much to live to forgive my enemies. Including the Muslim Fundies.

Still, i dont want to see our country get screwed, i want it to grow and prosper so i, and others can raise families in a good, or at least decent working nation.

--Lucas

Then, you need to come over to the other side of the fence!  

I'm not ignoring, I was busy, I'm coming down to the wire here with classes. I've been giving your comments some thought as well, as much as i could spare. Okay? My apologies.

---Lucas

Sure...no problem. I sometimes read stuff in that isn't there. My bad. I just hope you've got at least one decent, conservative teacher where you go to sc-rew-ool.

Then, you need to come over to the other side of the fence!

No thanks, the padded chairs, buffet and big screen (w/ 24/7 sports!) is just fine for me. Good ol' liberalism.

Now, I know this comment doesn't really jibe with what I've written, but please realize that there is a big difference between personal forgiveness of someone who has wronged you, and advocating the use of force or violence in standing against a threat of mass aggression. I do pray for my "enemies" but understand that the Islamic Fundies calling for my death and the deaths of my friends and family are just as much my enemies as people I know personally, and even moreso (and, as a Christian, I understand that I really only have one Enemy....the others are just....obstacles and irritants that Enemy puts here and there to annoy me and bring me down in moments of weakness). My personal "enemies" don't want me and mine dead. At least I hope not, 'cause they're a lot closer, and I would like very much to live to forgive my enemies. Including the Muslim Fundies.

I understand.

I guess, i've just read too much stuff by ghandi.

"To err is human, to forgive Divine." Grudges can burn you up over time; make you bitter and hateful. I've seen it happen many times. Besides, who's really being hurt by your bad feelings, you or him? It's always best to work at forgiveness. Harder, yes, but then....nothing worth doing is ever, ever easy or quick to accomplish.

Granted, and I am trying, believe me, i am. It'll just take more time.

Thanks for the advice.

Sure...no problem. I sometimes read stuff in that isn't there. My bad. I just hope you've got at least one decent, conservative teacher where you go to sc-rew-ool.

Funny thing is, the town i live in...the ratio is like 6 to 1, conservative/republican to democrat/liberal. That says something. The school's good,none of the instructors i've had have tried preaching anything to me, only the stuff we're there to learn. Like psychology, writing,etc...

Wrong! You already tried to insult me (Asshole anyone?)! Oh, how I love your bobbing and weaving! I am not the one that started the insults, and I have not insulted you. Calling a dog a dog is not an insult. Calling you stupid is not an insult as you plainly lack a grasp of history or facts and have the outlook of a rabbit. That is about to be turned into hassenpfeffer.

Funny, I never intended it as an insult. I never said, "Dr. Guy you are a _____." That would equate an insult.

Errrmmm, Why? The person responsible for it was a liberal (I will not say like you as at least he had some sense). I think it is YOUR job to morally justify it.

Since you've been lofting it up, you are the one who seems to be supporting it here, not I.

No, I don't have to. He, FDR, was the one who did it. He'd be the one to justify it as it was his actions, not mine.

That's Righwingers point, "diplomacy" has killed far more people than any war. How so?

I don't think anyone ever answered this for him.

Diplomats are seldom willing to admit that all their work has come to nothing. Therefore, they keep talking and talking while people keep dying and dying. We saw it all through the 90s with Iraq. Going all the way to Baghdad in Desert Storm would have precluded all the crap that came after, and ultimately led us to Iraqi Freedom.
In 1938, Daladier and Chamberlain insisted that they had purchased "Peace in Our Time". What they really did was screw everybody in Czeckoslovakia (how the hell do you spell that, anyway?) by selling them out to a vicious, aggressive tyrant.
If they had simply observed the rules laid down by the Treaty of Versailles and sent in their armies when Hitler occupied the Rhineland, or even sooner, the whole European War could likely have been avoided.
Yes, war should always be the last resort; but unfortunately it too often is shown to be the most efficient one, too.

I guess, i've just read too much stuff by ghandi.

---Lucas

Yeah, well, don't forget....Ghandi was murdered by a religious fanatic. Too bad it wasn't a Muslim fanatic; that would have worked out great here! Woulda fit right into my point!  Oh, well......   

I never said, "Dr. Guy you are a _____." That would equate an insult.

yes you did. Dont lie, it does not become the new you. Or is that the old you?

Since you've been lofting it up, you are the one who seems to be supporting it here, not I.

In your words, "errm no". I did not. best to identify who says what before calling them assholes and other stupid names.

But since you are a liberal, and you demanded a conservative justify a liberal (who also did not do that), dont demand of a conservative to explain what a liberal meant if you are too cowardly to take on the task yourself.

But since you are a liberal, and you demanded a conservative justify a liberal (who also did not do that), dont demand of a conservative to explain what a liberal meant if you are too cowardly to take on the task yourself.

---Dr Guy

Now, now folks....I'll gladly take the points, but let's keep it civil. And yes, you did call him an asshole, Lucas.

But since you are a liberal, and you demanded a conservative justify a liberal (who also did not do that), dont demand of a conservative to explain what a liberal meant if you are too cowardly to take on the task yourself.

Nowhere did I say you had to justify him based on party, I intended for you to justify it as based on being a human being, a living-breathing, caring,

As far as I am concerned, this question by default isn't of parties...it is of personal morals, ethics...would you, if put in that situation - do what he did?

How about you place yourself into their shoes, would you still do it?

Tick tock, tick tock, doc, what I'm pretty much doing is giving you an ethical/moral dilemma.

How would you handle it? Will you be human, will you follow party lines?

Yeah, well, don't forget....Ghandi was murdered by a religious fanatic. Too bad it wasn't a Muslim fanatic; that would have worked out great here! Woulda fit right into my point! Oh, well......

LOL Yeah, that dawned on me after i posted...I was like, "Ah cripe, he was..."

And there ya go...anywho.

And yes, you did call him an asshole, Lucas.

I don't remember doing so, still I apologize Dr.Guy. My temper does get the best of me some times.