How can anyone really argue rationally with this? If one believes, as I do, that 'Satan' represents an Iron Age myth in which primitive people with less knowledge, but more imaginative genius than modern man, were able to 'personalise' the whole realm of evil, then the whole notion that the problems of the world are the works of the 'Prince of Darkness' is ultimately meaningless. Of course, if we are limited to arguing as if we all agree that the Bible is God's inerrant and literally true word, then fundamentalist Christians are always going to 'win' the debate everytime. It is however at that point no longer a rational debate.

Actually the Bible does call for homosexuals to be put to death. It also calls for the same punishment for those who curse their parents, those who work on the Sabbath, those who take the Lord's name in vain, for adulterers etc etc etc ... so the Sunday School teacher is totally wrong. There are indeed some Christians who believe that these laws should still be applied and they are the exact equivalent of those Muslims who believe that Shariah law should everywhere replace its secular alternative. Link. And it's no good saying that that is old covenant justice, because Christ himself said "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." [Matthew 5:18]

The more interesting point is why these punishments are not regularly meted out today, as they were for centuries and as they still are in Islamic countries, and why even the majority of contemporary Christian fundamentalists are forced to accept a more civilised standard?

The answer is not hard to find. Conservatism today is much kinder and more humane than it was a century or two ago: it no longer supports slavery, or denies the vote to women, or punishes sodomy with imprisonment and petty larceny with the hangman's rope. In the inevitable clash of ideologies, it has taken on board some 'liberal' arguments, even as it resists and struggles against Liberalism in general, and in the process has become a more civilised current of thought. (I don't rule out beneficial influence also going the other way )

Similarly, Christianity today is kinder and more civilised than it was, because it too has had to take on board secular and progressive ideas (like merely disapproving of homosexuals rather than killing them as the Bible clearly instructs us to do). If the proportion of people in western society supporting humane and liberal (in the broadest sense of the word) views were to seriously decrease, it is not inconceivable that Christianity would become as murderous as it was in mediaeval times - just as Islam is today. And in the civilised western world, the United States is currently the only country in which this is even remotely imaginable.

So, the bottom line is, if your faith today is more humane, sane and less fanatical than it was it a few centuries ago, you have only the liberals to thank! ~

Chak---

Since I didn't write it, I'll let Lynne answer you on this, if she's agreeable to doing that. She's pretty busy, though, so it might be a few days.

As to the "Iron Age Myth" of Satan, I will say that one of the most apt movie lines I ever heard (though at the moment I can't recall the movie) was:

"The greatest trick Satan ever played was convincing the world that he doesn't exist."

Yeah, it was just a movie line, but truth sometimes comes in odd ways. We've let scienc nearly convince us that religion is myth, that Evil is a relative, rhetorical, rather than tangible and sentient, force working in the world.

Now, something I will answer:

it no longer supports slavery

---Chak

From the perpsective, at least, of an American conservative:

Thomas Jefferson was considered (what we today might call) not a little bit liberal in his time, yet somehow felt the need (or perhaps lacked the moral courage to fight it) to hang onto slavery as an institution rather than working at abolishing it at the beginning.
George Washington's and Abraham Lincoln's views were mostly conservative for their time. Washington freed his slaves upon his death, Lincoln died for freeing them altogether.
The only reason conservatives today get nailed with the slavery issue is because racist nutcases like the Neo-Nazi groups and the Klan often vote that way.

Hey, get me on paper first as saying I hate all Religions equally across the board and have the same stance on all of them!

On these boards I may seem to single out Christianity, but it is only because there are no other major religions here laying down articles.

#2 by Rightwinger Monday, May 01, 2006

"The greatest trick Satan ever played was convincing the world that he doesn't exist."

nope his greatest trick was inventing religion then dividing it by making all religions think theres is THE ONLY WAY TO GOD.

With palms together,

The notion that a minor figure, the Adversary, in biblical literature has taken on so much power in modern times boogles my mind. People actually believe this? What happened to an omniscient, omnipotent God? Moreover, it is sheer hubris to think that human beings are soooo special that a couple millenia battle is waging for our hearts and minds. Goodness. All the above teaching offers is a slick and superficial ways of understanding very complex issues. This is not good religion. Good religion demands a personal struggle with these issues. Flip Wilson notwithstanding, we need more than the devil made me do it.

Be well.

We've let scienc nearly convince us that religion is myth

Religion is a myth. However, you're using the word 'myth' in its modern sense of something false that people (wrongly) believe in, kind of like a snopes.com urban legend, whereas originally everybody understood that a myth was a story, but also believed that a powerful 'truth' could be found in this story.

The further irony of your position is that it is only fundamentalist christians who insist on treating (the christian) religion like science, thus insisting on the literal truth of their beliefs. Before the advent of our modern scientific worldview, people naturally thought more in mythic and symbolic ways, and the myths and stories that they created can still touch us in very deep ways.

Hey RW...I would love to meet your Pastor's wife. She is right on. She also has the gift of prophecy in that she is forthright in her speaking out. I also have that gift and it's usually not a fun gift to have. No one likes a prophet. But she's very right about the warfare thing. Funny. I just wrote something similar not as articulate but covered a bit of that in my blog comments as well.

I have been very aware and quite often can see Satan at work. It bugs me to no end that he's taking so many captive by his trickery and winsome ways. He's a clever devil all right.

Tell Lynne I'm on my way to see Beth Moore the end of the week. Ask her if she knows who she is. I bet she does!!

And it's no good saying that that is old covenant justice, because Christ himself said "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." [Matthew 5:18]

He also said "It is finished" on the cross. You don't have all your puzzle pieces put together Chak yet. So it's confusing to you.

There's also a thing called hermaneutics that comes into play when you read scripture. For one thing, when we read scripture we have to take into account who he was talking to. Some things given to the Jews were not given to the new christian converts such as circumcision as an example. Context is very important as well. Liberals (such as yourself) love to take scriptures out of context making it only a pretext. I'm sure you know all about that Chak....

In the end, it all comes down to one question. "Who do you say that I am?"

And yes Chak we do think you're a loveable liberal....even if we think you're deceived......I think you'd make a great Christian!!!

People actually believe this?

YES!!!

Blaming the ills of the world on a supernatural figure lets people off the hook. Just as giving God the credit for good things people do gives credit where it isn't due. The criticism of human pride is just a way that religious leaders try to keep people "enslaved" so to speak so those people keep going to church and putting money in the collection plates.

The criticism of human pride is just a way that religious leaders try to keep people "enslaved" so to speak so those people keep going to church and putting money in the collection plates.

you are so sad. It must really hurt to be you.

He also said "It is finished" on the cross.

Indeed, but I've just looked out the window, and yep, 'heaven' and earth are still there. No sign of them passing away right now...

You don't have all your puzzle pieces put together Chak yet. So it's confusing to you.

This is our familiar circular argument: if the Bible is the sole source of truth, the literal and inerrant word of God, then your superior knowledge of this text does indeed mean that you have 'more puzzle pieces' than me, but as I do not accept the former premise, I reserve the right to be sceptical about the latter.

Liberals (such as yourself) love to take scriptures out of context making it only a pretext. I'm sure you know all about that Chak....

I would argue the opposite. Liberals who read scripture do so trying to understand the context in which it was written, edited and compiled because they believe that our religious ideas have evolved with our understanding of other aspects of knowledge. This is about the third time now that you have called my sincerity and integrity into question, just because I happen to see things differently to you. Along with telling other people here that they are "sad" and "it must hurt" to be them. I suggest that you need to think a little about the love and kindness you 'claim' lie at the heart of your religion and whether or not you are really displaying that here.

I'm still waiting to hear back from Lynne; as I said, she's very busy, so this may take some time. I'm not in a position to argue her point, so I'm going to smile and bow out. When I do hear back, I'll post what she says.

Now, I will say that I feel for people like you, Icon, whose smallness of mind see religion as some sort of power play by petty tyrants in robes who want my money. Yes, my church passes around a collection plate, as do all others.
I, however, believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and that He died on the cross as a Divine sacrifice for my sins. For that, I am willing to give back at least some of my material worth. Anything I can give is insignificant next to the sacrifice made for me......and you. other than that, my pastor has no real control over my life, other than to try to guide it through the path of Scripture.
Think people like me and KFC stupid if you want, guys, but as Christians we really do feel for you. When Judgement comes, I hope to be taken away. You will not be. You will be left here to suffer. It will suck to be you. Very much so. I can hear the eyes rolling now. Oh well.....when you see that we're right and you're wrong, we won't seem so stupid then.

Yes, my church passes around a collection plate, as do all others.

Where does the money go? Has the church been remodeled or expanded? How rich is your preacher?

For that, I am willing to give back at least some of my material worth. Anything I can give is insignificant next to the sacrifice made for me

So you think the money goes to God? If not, who are you repaying?

How rich is your preacher?

Speaking as the son-in-law of a Southern Baptist preacher, I'll let you in on a little secret. The phrase "poor as a church mouse" would be an apt comparison. If you average out the number of hours he spends: studying, calling, visiting, praying (yes, they do that ), visiting sick members, answering phone calls at all hours of the day/night, preaching on Sunday mornings, Sunday evenings, Wednesdays, as well as the time spent in the office doing administration tasks, he routinely works 100 hour weeks. He's officially off on Fridays. But he's never "off". Like a doctor, a minister is always on call, always on duty.

And a rich preacher? Only very few. Any other job with the same education/training requirements and duties would be paid considerably more. Because they're religious figures, people assume that they don't need more. With all the duties listed above, the average preacher's hourly wage comes out to about $5/hr. Slightly less than minimum wage. A preacher in a larger church (and with the proportionally (and not so proportionally) larger responsibilities) WILL make more, but not nearly as much as they could doing public speaking engagements for money.

I used to think that preachers had it easy. All they had to do was come into the office for a couple days each week, work 3 days a week and Bam! Easy street. After I started dating my wife and saw everything that he has to deal with, it's not an easy job. And honestly, I believe that they are UNDER compensated, by and large. But that's just me.

When Judgement comes, I hope to be taken away. You will not be. You will be left here to suffer. It will suck to be you. Very much so. I can hear the eyes rolling now. Oh well.....when you see that we're right and you're wrong, we won't seem so stupid then.

Thank you! This is a wonderfully forthright and honest explanation of the psychological mechanism that gave rise to the human imagination's invention of hell fire. The christian religion, whether ultimately 'true' or 'untrue' does require its followers to espouse supernatural beliefs - without much in the way of corroborating evidence - that must mean that from the beginning christians were subject to mockery of one sort or another. How hard that must be to bear, particular if your faith is not so strong as you would like to believe. And while having to suffer the jibes of smart arses, what could give you more comfort than a supernatural 'revenge fantasy' in which all those nasty mockers get their ultimate come-uppance. "When Judgement comes, I hope to be taken away. You will not be. You will be left here to suffer." just about says it all. In the 21st century shouldn't we really try to move beyond the cosmic equivalent of "yah boo sucks!" And best of all no-one can accuse you of a lack of charity, oh no! It's 'God' doing the damning and stokeing up the hell-fire. Perfect!! (But, alas, somewhat easy to see through...)