A place for me to pour out my rants without clogging the inboxes of my friends and family. Also a place to give info on myself and Mary, our family news and events.
An article written by my church's Worship Leader, Lynne M.
Published on May 1, 2006 By Rightwinger In Politics
This article, I suppose, should really be posted in the "Religion" forum, but since it involves an aspect of the "Liberal/Conservative" thing, I thought I'd post it here, in "Politics".
I brought this subject up a few weeks ago in my Sunday School class, which is instructed by our church's Worship Leader, Lynne. She is also the Pastor's wife, and is very passionate in her faith.
I liked what she had to say, and asked her to write it down and forward it to me for posting here. I'm waiting to hear back from her, and if she doesn't mind, any opposing views will be forwarded on to her, and I will then post her answers. So, you may have to wait a couple of days for the exchange. She's pretty tough, though, I do have to warn you.----RW



First we have to remember that Christians have only one enemy.
[12] For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Now, I'm not saying that liberals are demon possessed or even evil. But here's what happens. Liberals and especially extreme liberals tend to come down on the side of the argument that is against scripture. Many times Christian liberals can use scripture to explain their point of view, but usually they have to defend their arguments with phrases like "times have changed since then."
Since Liberals are already arguing for things that are against scripture, the Christian's enemy lies to them and tells them that Christians and Christianity is THEIR enemy. And unfortunately for Christianity, the lies are fed when extreme conservatives listen to the enemy and say unchristian things like "Take the homosexuals out and shoot them" or they throw blood on or try to kill abortionists.
You see Satan is really everyone's enemy. He can not tell the truth. It is impossible for him. Even if he manages to speak a word of truth, it is tainted with lies or twisted truth (take what he told Eve in the Garden of Eden for example). He lies to anyone who will believe him. Christians and non-Christians alike. And he will tell them exactly what they want to hear so that his cause benefits. He tells the extreme liberals that Christians are the enemy and at the same time he will tell extreme conservatives that homosexuals and abortionists should be shot. His goal is to divide and conquer.
Why is it that Christianity and Judaism are the only world religions under constant attack? Why does everyone leave Bhudists and Hindus alone? Why are Muslims only persecuted after they begin to persecute others? It's because Christianity and Judaism are the only religions that threaten to destroy the enemy. Christianity is the only religion by which a person can be delivered from Satan's hands and the Jewish nation has been declared God's chosen (although I have a feeling that there are as many "pew-sitting" Jews as there are "pew-sitting" Christians who are going to be surprised at the final judgement)
Satan is at war. He wants to take all the territory he possibly can. He doesn't want Christmas celebrated because someone might realize just why Christmas takes place and if Christmas IS celebrated, he'd really rather people worship Santa Claus on that day because that way they'll miss the message and he won't lose any ground. I'm sure that Good Friday and Easter really scare him, but fortunately for him, Christians would rather emphasize Christmas, and without the message of Easter, Christmas is relatively harmless.
One might think that Liberals hate Christians. Some probably do, but most don't. The problem is they are listening to lies of one who does. Satan hates it when a person discovers he or she is truly created in the image of God and begins to discover how precious they are in His eyes . . . so, he developed the lie of evolution. And if one discovers that all humans are created in the image of God they might value life more and might tell more people about Jesus, so he propogates the lies about abortion and women having the right to choose.
Truthfully, that sounds perfectly legitimate. Women should have the right to choose what they do with their body. I believe even God would agree with that. So Satan started with the lie that sex outside of marriage was permissable. He started centuries ago gradually allowing that lie to come to the forefront and over the last 30 years it has become truth. I mean how many people have even read Hebrews 13:4 . . . and the marriage bed kept pure . . . ? Even most church going people and very moral folks don't see anything wrong with premarital sex. So, once sex outside of (before and during) marriage became socially acceptable, the next logical step was what to do with the result of the the incident. Women do have the right to choose what to do with their body. However, they are making the choice late. To abort or not to abort IS NOT the question. To have sex or not to have sex . . . that's the question! Liberals will fight back with "what about those who've been violated through rape or molestation?" They'll even ask "what about the life of the mother or when the baby is found to have a terrible birth defect?" Yep, that's the lie . . . Satan loves to fight with the lie. The truth is the percentage of abortions due to rape, molestation, the health of the mother or birth defect is so low that at this point it's irrelevant in the argument. The lie is that human life is unimportant especially if it's unborn human life. Folks believe that lie and we have children being killed every minute. Liberals are against Christians because Satan hates new life. Jesus Christ creates new life and His enemy is only out to destroy it. John 10:10 says that the enemy comes "only to steal, kill and destroy" and he is succeeding every day because liberals are believing the lies.
No, liberals don't hate Christians. They aren't even out to get Christians. But there is one who does and is. And he spends all of his time lying to anyone who will listen. His lies are the most believable out there. But anytime you hear anything that doesn't jive with scripture, no matter how true, legitimate or even backed with scientific evidence it seems, you should stop and pray and really contemplate whether or not you should beleive it. And the next time you feel like someone is out to get you. . . . someone "else" probably is!


Comments (Page 2)
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on May 02, 2006
what could give you more comfort than a supernatural 'revenge fantasy' in which all those nasty mockers get their ultimate come-uppance.




on May 02, 2006
My revenge fantasy has nothing to do with the supernatural, but it's that the disease lw suffers from will claim her very soon.
on May 02, 2006
By no means do I wish anyone to relate me to Icon. I have my beliefs and even if they might sound a bit like his I am, by no means, backing him up or on the same level as him. I actually find his words disturbing.

Now, I believe in God. I was raised in a Catholic environment. However I have never been good at going to church. I have this thing about people telling me about God in their own words. There have been so many people out there using religion to trick people into giving them money, into having sex with them (including children), into believing that everyone else is wrong but them. I have no trust in people, I expect everyone to sooner or later screw me cause we live in a world where only the smart survive. I can't help it, I was born this way.

I believe that God watches me, that he wants me to prove myself to him. I do that by the choices I make and the mistakes I deal with. I believe that many churches use the money wisely, but I also believe that many use it unwisely, I have seen what is done with the money. I can see how people are fooled by what they are told in their church. the way I see it, if I'm wise enough, I need not to go to a church to speak to God, I need not to have someone talk to me about him or Jesus, I need not to have the Bible read to me, I need not to give my material things to a church to feel that I I did my part cause I can give that and more and see the results with my own eyes.

I believe that God had a hand in creating the Universe, but I believe that he did it by allowing it to expand itself one planet at a time, one star at a time, one galaxy at a time. I see things very differently than most people and most people will not be able to convince me otherwise, cause I don't have to believe a person, a book, an ancient scripture or a vision when I already believe in God and his wonders.

BTW, I find it wrong for anyone, regardless of religion or believe, to insult anyone else for what they believe in. Just like Icon is wrong in making a mochery of RW's and KFC's beliefs it is also wrong of them to inslut him and others by saying that they will go to heaven while they will not. Have respect for each others beliefs, that's how it should be.
on May 02, 2006
As to the "Iron Age Myth" of Satan, I will say that one of the most apt movie lines I ever heard (though at the moment I can't recall the movie) was:


Actually, the quote originally belonged to CS Lewis.
on May 02, 2006
This is about the third time now that you have called my sincerity and integrity into question, just because I happen to see things differently to you.


First off Chak, you are being a tad bit sensitive as I did not mean to be rude at all. Only that you claim to be an English Prof and you would understand about Context!! That's what I meant by you would understand. I'm sorry for the confusion tho.


Indeed, but I've just looked out the window, and yep, 'heaven' and earth are still there. No sign of them passing away right now...


no Chak, the Old Covenant was finished. There is still more to be finished. Not all the prophecies have come true yet. Yes there is still more to go till we reach the very end of times. The fulness of the Gentiles is the time period now.

And a rich preacher? Only very few.


I agree with CM and his assessment on preachers. While I have seen up close a few lazy preachers I don't believe it's the norm. For the most part these guys are dealing with all sorts of people and I know for a fact that ministry would be easy if not for the people. My preacher is constantly working. He gets very little down time. Just dealing with marriages going south takes a ton of his time and energy. To put a sermon together takes for him about 15-20 hours a week. Of course he goes deep. He also teaches during the week sometimes 2-3 times a week. He says he puts in about 50 hours a week on a good week. He also works one day a week outside the church (his day off)in his old secular job so he can put his kids thru college. The pastor's pay just doesn't do it.

Along with telling other people here that they are "sad"


what's wrong with that? I can see by what this person is saying that he must have a very sad life. There is no joy.

it is also wrong of them to inslut him and others by saying that they will go to heaven while they will not


Is that an insult? I agree tho that we should not insult each other. While insults make one angry for some the truth does as well. From our point of view there is only one way to heaven and that is thru the gatekeeper who happens to be Christ. There is no other way. Just think about this. You are saying we should not tell people about eternity. Look at the likes of Noah, Jonah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, John the Baptist etc.

Examine their discouses and you will find what we are saying is very tame in comparison. John got his head taken off literally for what he said. The people in their days laughed at them (and worse) much the same way as they still do today at us. Every generation has had people of God in it for a reason. There will be no excuse someday saying you did not hear the word of God preached to you in some form or fashion.

But we can say as did one of the prophets, the blood will not be on my hands. As long as I'm breathing I'm gonna tell others about Christ and warn them about his adversary who is a liar and a murderer right from the beginning. It doesn't matter if they believe me or not. I just want others to investigate the claims.
on May 02, 2006
But we can say as did one of the prophets, the blood will not be on my hands. As long as I'm breathing I'm gonna tell others about Christ and warn them about his adversary who is a liar and a murderer right from the beginning. It doesn't matter if they believe me or not. I just want others to investigate the claims.


Parden me, again, Mr. Butinsky here, but I think KFC, you are making the point for those who have trouble having a dialogue with some Christians. Your mission in life is to give, not to receive, and as you say, it really doesn't matter to you whether you are believed or not. The agenda within a Christian-Other Faith dialogue is (or certainly seems to be) witnessing for the purpose of getting other people to examine and accept your Jesus and your faith. This does not a "dialogue" make.

Be well.
on May 02, 2006
what's wrong with that? I can see by what this person is saying that he must have a very sad life. There is no joy.

OK, a subsequent comment shows you may have a point here!

Your mission in life is to give, not to receive,

Strangely enough, I can see KFC's side here. If she truly believes that she has the only saving truth and that the rest of us have been deceived by Satan, she has no choice but to 'give' the gospel and not to 'receive' our 'errors' which can only lead straight to hell. Of course, I do not share this belief and think that it is profoundly mistaken. But having accepted that some people do believe this, I am perhaps more realistic about the possibility of 'inter-faith dialogue'.

I know that Buddhists and Christians, for example, have had some very polite exchanges of insights (the Catholic monk Thomas Merton writing on Zen is very interesting in this regard), but, to be honest, those christians who have participated have had to 'come over to our side' a little to make the dialogue possible. Though I believe Christian fundamentalism to be in many ways a new departure for this religion, Christian 'exclusivism' has a far longer pedigree.

there is only one way to heaven and that is thru the gatekeeper who happens to be Christ. There is no other way.

I don't find this too hard to accept. Just as long as we also have Nibbana, Valhalla, Elysium, Paradise and of course that strange afterlife for 144,000 only Jehovah's Witnesses, then a 'heaven' just for fundamentalist christians may be the ideal solution that keeps everybody happy.
on May 02, 2006
Your mission in life is to give, not to receive


EXACTLY. It is more blessed to give than to receive. That's right. I'm not a taker but a giver. Not only here in regards to JU but in all aspects of life as well. True joy is giving of oneself. The ones with the expectant "What am I going to get" attitude are not the happy ones here. It's not about me.

If she truly believes that she has the only saving truth


WOW CHAK!! But it's not so much that I have the keys but that I know who holds them sort of thing. I just want to introduce people to Him, the one who holds all the keys.

Christian 'exclusivism' has a far longer pedigree


I look at this so called "exclusivism" like this: You have been given an invitation to a wedding. You look at your schedule and say, I'm much too busy right now. I've got other things to attend to. Maybe later I'll go to the party. So you send back the little card and put "0" will be attending from my house. I see God up there saying to his angels..."Can you believe this guy?" So you exclude yourself Chak. We don't exclude you. We have sent back the little card and put, in my case, "5", on that little card and sent it back.

We will attend the wedding. Wish you were there.
on May 02, 2006
what's wrong with that? I can see by what this person is saying that he must have a very sad life. There is no joy.

OK, a subsequent comment shows you may have a point here!


You're both full of shit on this one.

That subsequent comment really has nothing to do with this thread.
on May 03, 2006
That subsequent comment really has nothing to do with this thread.

Kind of begging the question what it's doing here...
on May 03, 2006
From Lynne to Chakgoka:

"There are some very good points in this response. We do have the liberals to thank about a lot of things. If it wasn't for Liberalism, conservativism would get way out of hand . . . and vice versa . . . My initial "post" (as I believe it said) talked primarily about radicals. Likewise I said that radical conservatives cause most of the problems in Christianity and Muslims will tell you that radicals of the Islam faith are giving them a bad name. It's all true.

It is also correct about all the people the Bible says to put to death (actually it's even more than the responder mentioned). And Jesus did say that not an iota of the law would pass away. Here are two facts that I'd like you to consider. First Jesus told the crowd who came to stone the adulterous woman that the one without sin could cast the first stone. And . . . the second is an interpretation of scripture. Some interpret that passage "not one iota of the law will pass away" to mean that the law must be followed until Christ returns. Others interpret it (in light of Jesus' telling the one without sin to cast the first stone and in light of John and Jesus giving us a "new command") to mean that it won't matter how much Jesus might explain that He came to free us from the law and give us a new command, those who follow the law will never give it up. That law will never pass away because many will refuse to live in the freedom that Jesus Christ came to give. They choose instead to live legalistic and try to achieve heaven by their own means.

"How can one really argue rationally with this?" [end quote] Another good point. The original post is an answer I gave to a group of people who believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and that there really is a Prince of Darkness who hates those who call themselves Christians. I would never argue this with those who don't believe those two principles. It can't be argued. I don't believe in using the Bible to argue with those who don't believe the Bible. It's pointless. The Old Testament was written for those who believe in God who created the universe. Fact is the Old Testament was never meant to regulate those other than the Jews and those who chose to join the Jewish community. It was rules to set them apart from the other nations who had gone so far away from morality that at times God chose to wipe them out rather than try to rehabiliatate them. Likewise, the New Testament clearly says that we're to judge those inside the church, not outside. It wasn't written as a book for everyone to follow, it was written as a series of letters to those who were trying to follow the greatest man who had ever lived. It's only after we decide to follow that Man that the Bible becomes relevant. Up until then it's merely a history book.

But tell me, how would you explain the fact that radical liberals do seem to be out to get Christians? Why are radical liberals afraid to let Christians pray? In fact, if Christianity is such a farce, so far fetched and impossible to believe, what does it hurt that we pray or talk about Jesus. Why are there certain places that don't mind if you pray or talk about God, but you can't even talk about Jesus? If He is no more real than the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, then what is the paranoia surrounding this ancient man that even the Jews can't deny lived and walked and was a great prophet and teacher? That's what seems so absurd to me. The average liberal who is not radical, doesn't care if I pray or talk about Jesus, but there's almost a fear of the name of Jesus among radicals. What causes such an irrational fear of something they believe to be imaginary? You would think if they really believed that my faith was so absurd, they'd be glad that some people adhered to it simply because of the moral values it teaches. I've seen criminals completely changed because they believed in Jesus (I know there are even more who claim to know Jesus and it's just a lie, they go right back to their old lives). I've seen families get off of welfare because they become Christians and realize that Christ expects us not to be a burden on society but be a servant to society. I've seen men who were alcoholics and abusive do a complete turn around due to the fact they found Jesus Christ. I'd understand the fear and paranoia if we still lived in the time of the Spanish Inquisition. It would be a very rational fear if it were still the time when those who were perceived to be witches were being drowned and burned. But, in America in the 21st Century, it completely blows my mind that there are people who want to keep the 10 Commandments from hanging in the courthouses across America. If they were really just made up by Jews in 4000 BC, then what makes the difference since at least the last six are really great rules to live by? There has to be some root to such a fear.

And my final answer is another question . . . If Satan is really "an Iron Age myth in which primitive people with less knowledge, but more imaginative genius than modern man, were able to 'personalise' the whole realm of evil" then how do you explain demon possession? I know it doesn't happen with the frequency that it did in the Bible and I also realize that there are those radical conservatives out there who want to pass off mental illness and split personality disorder for demon possession. No . . . How do you explain a man who I've known all my life after turning from Christ at a point in His life and then after about a year of allowing himself to live a life that one might describe as being led by evil, crawling around his driveway like a dog and making strange noises, trying to twist his head off his shoulders, looking at me with eyes that could only be described as demonic and then dropping to the floor like a puppet after a prayer session (no, it wasn't a TV show exorcism - and during his "prodigal" year, he didn't get into drugs). I've only experienced it once. It's not something I go looking for and not something that I hope I'll ever experience it again. Up until that day, I believed in demonic powers, but I really thought that those kind of things only happened in the Bible. I'm convinced that there is an enemy, and not because I've read about it in scripture or because someone taught me something as a youngster. I learned a long time ago not to base my faith on what I've been taught or told. I'm convinced there is an enemy because I've seen him at work. And I'm convinced there is a Savior because I've seen Him at work too. Only His work doesn't give me nightmares! His work brings me an unexplainable peace in the midst of the most stressful of times. His work gives me confidence when it seems as though there is no hope in my situation. His work is something that you won't understand I'm sure. It's something that's probably making you laugh at me right now, but that's OK. Because His work allows me to accept the fact you think I'm crazy and still believe with all my heart that one day you'll find out I'm right . . . I just pray it's sooner that too late."----Lynne

From Lynne to MM:

"AMEN!"
on May 03, 2006
Where does the money go? Has the church been remodeled or expanded? How rich is your preacher?
---Icon

There is work being done on the church now, yes, and they also have the usual expenses that we all have; electricity, gas, etc., plus salary for paid employees. My preacher would laugh to hear you ask that. They get by, I guess, and they tithe what they do get, so they rely on God's blessings to get them through.



So you think the money goes to God? If not, who are you repaying?


Irt doesn't go "directly" to God, no, of course not, but, as LW (welcome back, sweetie, by the way, nice to see you) said, it goes to further God's work and our church mission. Someone like you, Icon, sadly, cannot grasp that concept because of your irrational hatred of religion.

My revenge fantasy has nothing to do with the supernatural, but it's that the disease lw suffers from will claim her very soon.
---Icon

Icon, this is a sad first for me; this comment gets you blacklisted. You ARE a bitter and small-minded person, Icon, and I'll never answer anything you post in any threads again. As a certain Roman governor once did, I'm washing my hands of you. Goodbye.
on May 03, 2006
Sometimes the server problems can work to one's advantage.

there are those radical conservatives out there who want to pass off mental illness and split personality disorder for demon possession



Wrong.

What causes such an irrational fear of something they believe to be imaginary?


It's not fear. Fear (and belief) of the irrational is superstition. It's being tired of the irrational and superstitious. We just get tired of hearing it.

I apologize for the trolling, but not the sentiment behind it.
on May 03, 2006
Someone like you, Icon, sadly, cannot grasp that concept because of your irrational hatred of religion.


Wrong again. I haven't been to church in 33 years.

a man who I've known all my life after turning from Christ at a point in His life and then after about a year of allowing himself to live a life that one might describe as being led by evil, crawling around his driveway like a dog and making strange noises, trying to twist his head off his shoulders, looking at me with eyes that could only be described as demonic and then dropping to the floor like a puppet after a prayer session (no, it wasn't a TV show exorcism - and during his "prodigal" year, he didn't get into drugs).


Maybe he was acting.
on May 03, 2006
"It is an act of virtue to deceive and lie, when by such means the interests of the church might be promoted." - Bishop Eusebius (260-339)
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