A place for me to pour out my rants without clogging the inboxes of my friends and family. Also a place to give info on myself and Mary, our family news and events.
The little ones here are so upset....but it's all been done before, children.
Published on January 1, 2006 By Rightwinger In Politics
The debate over the US government spying on its citizens has so many people here on JU, and on other sites I've visited, in such a tizzy.
Is Bush responsible? Isn’t he? Our individual rights being assailed! Aren’t they? Privacy is paramount! Isn’t it? Part of what follows is from a post I left over on stevendaedalus’s thread. Please see the link.


So many in America today are all too quick to forget that so much that is so hotly debated and readily decried in our present war on terror has already been implemented and used previously, with no lasting impression on our rights as citizens. When the crisis had properly passed, everything was returned to normal. Somehow, we survived the assault on our freedoms. Extreme dangers call for extreme measures.

For example, in the Civil War, Lincoln's government kept a wide eye for Confederate sympathizers in the North, suspended Haebeus Corpus and managed the press.

I both WW1 and WW2, the government not only managed the press (with the willingness of the press itself), but openly encouraged spying on its own people, both by government agencies (FBI, OSS) and by the people themselves, who often gave tips to those agencies, whether they panned out or not.
They were constantly warned to be ever vigilant against the "Fifth Column". Sometimes this did work, as with the German saboteurs that came ashore somewhere in New England, I believe it was. And as I'm sure we're all aware, Japanese-American citizens were sent to concentration camps by the thousands, with no real evidence against them except their ancestry.
Also in WW2, the government even went, hat and flowers in hand, so to speak, to the Mafia in an effort to keep Axis spies off the waterfronts. Who controlled the waterfronts? The unions. Who controlled the unions? The Mafia.
So, they went to "Lucky" Luciano, at the time serving his sentence in Federal prison, and asked for his help. He agreed that Hitler was a menace that had to be stopped and, despite his somewhat adversarial situation, was willing to cut a deal. He sent a message to his "associates" to keep an eye out. It was done.
I’ve read of a similar suggestion, from arch-conservative radio host and author Michael Savage, for our present war. He advises that we could go to the street gangs, and the more "organized" criminals, in the big cities, and ask their help or advice in sorting (and even snuffing) out potential terrorist threats on their "turfs", I suppose you could say.
Hey…perhaps that was one last thing "Tookie" Williams could have done to prove his contrition? To earn his redemption?
If you’ll notice, though; these sorts of things all happened in an era or eras in which we still realized that common sense and national security had to take precedence over political expediency and whether or not someone was personally offended. After all, people….what good to us were individual rights if we’d lost the whole damn country in the name of slavishly guarding them?
In this war, we may not be in danger of losing "the whole damn country", but we could sure as hell lose a lot of lives. Lives that may have been saved if they’d been willing to give a little on their privacy rights. Once more, and with feeling: extreme dangers call for extreme measures.
Why should this war, in which we've already lost over 3,000 innocent people in a completely unprovoked attack, be any different from any others we’ve fought…and ultimately won?

"There is no substitute for victory".---General of the Armies, Douglas MacArthur






Comments
on Jan 01, 2006
Privacy is paramount! Isn’t it?


As far as I'm concerned, as soon as you engage in criminal behavior your privacy is out the window. We have to trust our government to undertake any investigations with candor and with restraint. (That is the kicker, isn't it?)

It is absolutely imperative that we fight this war on all fronts. Sadly, the enemy is among us.
on Jan 01, 2006
Sadly, the enemy is among us.
---singrdave

Yes....and too many of them are American citizens who vote Democrat.

Thanks for posting.
on Jan 01, 2006
Sadly, the enemy is among us.


We have "seen" the enemy, and they are "us".
on Jan 01, 2006
We have "seen" the enemy, and they are "us".


Well there's only one solution for that...

More seriously though, this seems a little unnecessary to me:

I’ve read of a similar suggestion, from arch-conservative radio host and author Michael Savage, for our present war. He advises that we could go to the street gangs, and the more "organized" criminals, in the big cities, and ask their help or advice in sorting (and even snuffing) out potential terrorist threats on their "turfs", I suppose you could say.


Can you imagine a gangster tolerating an armed invasion of his territory anyway? Or a racist white/black/hispanic gang putting up with Arabs moving into their area and attacking it? It's not necessary to coordinate an alliance when the gangs have little to offer that they won't do anyway.
on Jan 02, 2006
And as I'm sure we're all aware, Japanese-American citizens were sent to concentration camps by the thousands, with no real evidence against them except their ancestry.


So, we should send people to concentration camps because of their ancestry and let them go when the "war on terror" is over? I don't want to see police barging into our classrooms and taking away my friendcs because of their descent. That is what the worst tyrants of our time have done. If the terrorists only hate freedom, then aren't we giving in by destrying our freedoms ourselves?

I’ve read of a similar suggestion, from arch-conservative radio host and author Michael Savage, for our present war. He advises that we could go to the street gangs, and the more "organized" criminals, in the big cities, and ask their help or advice in sorting (and even snuffing) out potential terrorist threats on their "turfs", I suppose you could say.


What would this help entail, and why would they help, unless to get a free pass on crime? I have a feeling that most of these gangs don't care that much about the war on terror, and there wouldn't be a lot they could do. We sren't going to see al-Qaeda troop transports heading to California being stopped by a barrage of bullets from street gangs. All it would do is give them a free pass. "Yeah, he was a terrorist. That's why we shot him, robbed his store and used the money to buy crack."

Can you imagine a gangster tolerating an armed invasion of his territory anyway?


I can't even imagine an armed terrorist invasion of North American territory. Seeing a well organized army do an amphibious assault D-Day style, or march north from secret military bases in Mexico would be the exact opposite of their current strategy, and a bad one for them.
on Jan 02, 2006
Great Article Rightwinger, but the terrorists have beat us to the gangbanger punch. Link
on Jan 02, 2006
From my reading, the feds used Lucky Luciano as a link to the Mafia for the invasion of Sicily. This was what I understood to be tha primary reason he was spoken too. Not the unions.
on Jan 02, 2006
Can you imagine a gangster tolerating an armed invasion of his territory anyway? Or a racist white/black/hispanic gang putting up with Arabs moving into their area and attacking it? It's not necessary to coordinate an alliance when the gangs have little to offer that they won't do anyway.
---cacto



I have a feeling that most of these gangs don't care that much about the war on terror, and there wouldn't be a lot they could do.
--latour999

I wasn't saying that Arabs would be "attacking" the neighborhoods. The gangs would simply be asked to keep an eye out for whatever looks like terrorist activity. They ought to know it when they see it, right? Besides, I don't know that there would be "little they could or would do anyway". After all, if cops won't even enter certain areas of the cities without a large force, it sounds as if much could be done, if the situation called for it and their help could be pledged.
As I said, what Savage proposed was the same type of thing the Roosevelt Administration worked out with Luciano. Just keep an eye out for anyone suspicious, and if you find someone or something, either let us know or handle it yourselves. And, yes, some sort of deal was cut with the Mob to attain this end, just as there would have to be with the gangs and such if it were done today. They're not exactly red-white-and-blue blooded patriots, no. There would have to be a little give and take in order. As to their racially "tolerating" Arabs in their midst, this is precisely what Savage was alluding to. Any suspicious persons or activities would immediately come under observation in their areas.


We sren't going to see al-Qaeda troop transports heading to California being stopped by a barrage of bullets from street gangs.
---latour

I'm sorry, but this attempt at dismissing my point is just silly, on a couple levels. Firstly, no...we wouldn't see that. Secondly, how much have you read about gangs in big cities? SWAT teams in some of these areas often aren't as well-armed as the gangs.
The gangs may not be as disciplined, no, but they wouldn't need to be. They wouldn't be repelling an invading army, for cryin' out loud. They might, however, be exchanging fire with one or more terrorist operatives....something with which they are already well-suited to deal from their day-to-day lives.
As to them simply killing people and crying "terrorist" as an excuse, this might happen, yes, as it may have on the waterfronts in the 40s. But, if their leaders could be convinced, and agreed to help, it is likely that they would listen to them on whole. Gangs are nothing if not loyal to their leaders; after all, anarchy does not breed such successes as we've seen from them.

I can't even imagine an armed terrorist invasion of North American territory. Seeing a well organized army do an amphibious assault D-Day style, or march north from secret military bases in Mexico would be the exact opposite of their current strategy, and a bad one for them.
---latour

Once again....this is just silly. You completely missed the point. I'm sorry, latour, and cacto as well---did you read my article before you posted your comments?

Thanks for the props, ParaTed, but unless I missed something in what you linked, as I may have, I still don't see how this idea wouldn't work.


From my reading, the feds used Lucky Luciano as a link to the Mafia for the invasion of Sicily. This was what I understood to be tha primary reason he was spoken too. Not the unions.
---SSG Geezer

It was both, actually. They got his help for the Sicily invasions, too, when the time came, yes. For his contacts there.

Thanks for the posts, folks, but you all seem to be missing the point of the article. The part about enlisting gangs, on which you all seized, was secondary. The main point was that all the loud hoo-ha and hand-wringing about our rights being infringed upon is, historically speaking, much ado about nothing. I wanted to point out that such things have happened before, with no long-lasting ill effects.
on Jan 02, 2006
Sorry, missed this one.....

So, we should send people to concentration camps because of their ancestry and let them go when the "war on terror" is over?
---latour

It's happened before, hasn't it? Besides...though there was no proven threat from a Japanese presence in America, the threat posed by Arabs here has been more than proven to most peoples staisfaction.
I might add here that, as a result of this insult to them, many, many Japanese-American men volunteered for military service. An entire division was made up of them, and served with special distinction in Europe. There were more medals for bravery and conduct over and above handed out to that single division than in all other American divisions combined in the whole war. They wanted to show their loyalty to their country.
I've asked before where all these "loyal" Arab-Americans are. We keep hearing about them, don't we? If they're really so "outraged" by the Islamic terrorists and such, why aren't our military recruiting offices having to turn them away for lack of facilites?


I don't want to see police barging into our classrooms and taking away my friendcs because of their descent. That is what the worst tyrants of our time have done.
---latour

Then you'd better include Lincoln, Wilson and FD Roosevelt among "the worst tyrants of our time".



If the terrorists only hate freedom, then aren't we giving in by destrying our freedoms ourselves?
---latour

If, every time I go out to the supermarket, I have to wonder if I'm going to die in a terrorist's car bomb explosion or some other attack, am I free? If I have to worry about my kids going off to school, because they're in a public building, or my wife or husband going off work because he/she works for a large corporation or government office, am I free?
If i have to let my government deny the freedoms of a few in order to safeguard the lives, and ultimately the liberties, of the overwhelming many, I'm willing to live with that.
on Jan 02, 2006
Thanks for the props, ParaTed, but unless I missed something in what you linked, as I may have, I still don't see how this idea wouldn't work.


Oh, I wasn't saying that the idea couldn't work, I'm just saying that it seems the terrorist have already begun working the Gangbanger angle. To make it work, we would have to be willing to outbid them. Gangbangers are "highest bidder" types after all.
on Jan 02, 2006
To make it work, we would have to be willing to outbid them. Gangbangers are "highest bidder" types after all.
---ParaTed

I see. Well, though the terrorists have virtually infinite wealth behind them, the government still has many gang leaders in prison to use a bargaining chips. Also, a lot of police pressure, both on local and federal levels, could be weilded against their criminal activities unless they agreed to help.