Guess that means they have joined the western mentality!

It's remarkable because Poland and the Baltic countries are very right-wing. Of course Poland and East Germany have had exactly the same history, except that Poland was catholic and East Germany was protestant before 1990 and that East Germany got lots of money from the west after 1990 and Poland did not.

Poland is now doing better!

I am mentioning religious affiliations because the Catholic Church was and is very popular in Poland and was heavily involved in the peaceful struggle against the (also peaceful!) communist regime. In East Germany the protesters who brought down the regime also hid in churches (which the regime did respect!) but after 1990 the vast majority of East Germans left the church.

The main differences I see between Poland and East Germany now are:

1. Poland is doing well, East Germany is not.

2. East Germany got money from the west, Poland did not.

3. Poland respects the church that helped them in their struggle against communism, East Germany has abandoned the church that helped them.

4. Poland is tolerant and patriotic, friends with the west and Israel, East Germany is known for its intolerance and nationalism, and is anti-American and anti-semitic.

I like Poland. I don't like East Germany.

Actually, I understand that a higher percentage in Russia still do. They do make the trains run on time.

East German communists do not manage to do even that!

You cannot see a true communist state because it cannot exist. Man was not built that way.

A family is a communist economy. Each family member gives according to his ability and takes according to his needs.

Human beings are hard-wired to act like that. Human nature affords communism. An animal living in the way human beings do without a communist instinct would see its off-spring die and would fail to defend itself against predators. Such traits would quickly die out.

Why communism doesn't work in larger systems has nothing to do with human nature and everything with scalability.

Capitalism works because, being based on individual decisions based on each agent's perception of reality, it is infinitely scalable (ignoring external constraints like inadequate resources). Communism requires not perception but understanding of reality and not individual decisions but communal decisions (which CAN be made by one person nevertheless). This is possible in small communities (and even in very large communities if run by a genius), but it doesn't scale well in general.

There are special forms of communism that require total knowledge of reality but can work with individual decisions. Open Source software development is such a mechanism: enough knowledge exists because of the Internet and other networks, individual decisions can be made because the product (software) is infinitely scalable.

A family is a communist economy. Each family member gives according to his ability and takes according to his needs.

You see that is where the analogy falls down.  It works in some (one may even say most) families, not all.  And when you start extending that family, you pick up the people that do not work that way, and hence it breaks down.  When I said man, I meant society.  For Society is composed of a variety of people, and as you point out, on a micro scale it can work.  However, once you bring all facets of man into the commune, it cannot work due to the very fact that no two people are identical.  So while some may work within communism, most will not.

You see that is where the analogy falls down.

It's not an analogy. I speaking of the simple fact that a family is an economic system (that's what "economy" means: "household").

I disagreed with your statement that communism goes against human nature, not with any statements about communism being a failed system on the state level.


I don't know how many living families you know that do not employ communism internally. But I know none. And I expect children would die if their parents do not apply a needs-based entitlement system rather than a capitalist market-based entitlement system within the household.

I don't know how many living families you know that do not employ communism internally. But I know none. And I expect children would die if their parents do not apply a needs-based entitlement system rather than a capitalist market-based entitlement system within the household.

Tova7 has an article on that.  And I wrote one a few weeks back about dead beat dads.

Geez, this has turned into a nice discussion.

Cacto: Good to see you again, you Aussie Michael Corleone, you!

I wasn't being ironic; yes, there is much wrong with this country (as with all countries, actually), but not the system it runs under.
You have to admit that, for all its shortcomings, capitalism is still the most practical and workable economic system man has ever come up with.
How else do you explain the rapid advancement, culturally, technologically and economically, of the Western (and Westernized) world, than to credit capitalism and its inherent freedoms? Virtually all the high-technology the USSR and China had/have, they acquired from somewhere in the Capitalist West.
So many Third World nations have attempted to base their systems on some form of Socialism and have failed as countries, that I'd hardly think it a coincindence. Even many nations that are ostensibly "socialist" have some form of capitalism as their main economic policy.
Say what you want, but the system that gave us the Carnegies, Vanderbilts and Rockefellers is the winner, and is here to stay.

I don't know how many living families you know that do not employ communism internally. But I know none.

---Leauki

A family is different from a state. Responsible, caring mothers and fathers know that they brought their children into the world, and they love and want the best for them. They are RESPONSIBLE for their very lives and existence.

How many people that you don't know do you care enough about to give up everything you have and earn to care for their needs and wants?
That's the problem with your argument, in my mind.
The State doesn't KNOW you. It doesn't really care about its charges, the way good parents do, as your analogy would seem to state.
Whether by accident or design, for all its big talk about a classless society and sharing of the wealth, the Communist State comes down to existing simply for the benefit of itself. The people it governs are simply there either to feed into that or to hinder that. That's not a family.

DrGuy...thanks for the comments.
Very well said.

Another thing I'm getting out of reading this book is a chuckle about how easily duped the Left was, even back then.
As most of you probably remember, while Reagan was building up our military and nulcear arsenal, huge peace demonstrations, rallying against him and his policies, were breaking out all over the world, including here in the USA. It seems that most, if not all, of the groups and/or organizers were either Soviet or East German spies, Communist Party front groups or were being funded or otherwise backed by the USSR and/or its allies.
Sad thing is, the peaceniks today are still falling for it. So many of their "spontaneous" demonstrations and the groups behind them are organized and/or funded by anti-American organizations. Hell, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that Al-Quaeda itself funnels laundered cash to Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore and Jane Fonda.

Here's my question, though: all those people that were angrily taking to the streets and shouting anti-American and anti-Reagan slogans, burning him in effigy for being a militaristic, insane warmonger....where were they in 60s and 70s, when the Soviets were in the midst of the THEIR military buildup? The one that created the biggest war machine in history to that point, including WW2?
How come they weren't out there demonstrating and marching in front of the SOVIET Embassies, burning Kruschev and Breznhev (spelling?) in effigy?
Why do the totalitarians always seem to get a pass for their faults, but not us? That last was a rhetorical question; it's gone back and forth on here some many times that I really don't think it needs rehashed.

But, if you're feelin' Froggy, LEAP!