Why do so many fear God's involvement in government?

Pulled partially from my reply on dabe's post

Published on September 16, 2005 By Rightwinger In Politics

I see nothing wrong with Believers, working in and for a government based on free choice, invoking the aid of a deity in day-to-day dealings.
What's so wrong with asking Divine guidance for help in our affairs of state?

Some of you are so afaid of us becoming theocracy; that's crap and you know it.
This nation existed for 186 years before the church-state debate really got going in the early 1960s. In fact, we resisted putting a Catholic in the Oval Office, because Papal influence was so strongly feared, that we didn't get one until 1960. And we wouldn't have had that one if Joe Kennedy Sr. hadn't had a few strings to pull with his old Mafia cronies in Illinois. Somehow we managed for all those years, before we had a Supreme Court arrogant,and liberal, enough to legislate to us, and stayed a secularly-based government while still keeping God around at least peripherally.

You worry about nothing, people.....just like always.

You're so afraid that God might actually be a part of daily life. Why? Why do you fear religion? Because it holds us accountable for our deeds...our ideals?

You should fear Him, then, if that's the case.

Comments (Page 1)

Rightwinger

on Sep 16, 2005

bump...grind

Zoomba

on Sep 16, 2005

I am personally religious, though I don't stick to a particular church (I consider myself christian and take many of my cues from the bible instead of pastors, priests, popes or reverends). However, I feel that my religion and faith is my own. It is up to me to live my life in accordance with it, to do right by God. It is NOT up to the government to in any way shape or form touch it. I also believe that each person has the right to believe as they see fit so long as they do not try to force it on anyone else.

I do not fear religion, I fear a government, or members of a government who would try and take their personal faith and turn it into laws and regulations that then impact me. I would never presume to try and pass laws regarding how you practiced your faith, so why do you get to pass laws that affect me or others in the same way?

God has no place in the workings of law and government. Christ himself was all for the separation of the secular government and faith (render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's). The reason God has no place in the world of law is because we can't really agree on which God is the right one. Is it the Christian God? (Oh, and would that be Roman Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Mormon etc?) The Muslim God? The Jewish God? One of the greek Gods? The Spagetti Monster From Space God? You can sit there and say "Mine! My God is the true one!" and that's cool so long as you're not ramming that down someone's throat.

What you do in your own life, that is the domain of God. God in Christianity has always been about the personal relationship in spite of a sinful world surrounding us. Everything Christ was about was what YOU did and what YOU said. Government however has to service and represent all of its citizens in a fair and reasonable manner. It's been stated on another thread that fully 1/4 of the US does not believe in a god... and Roman Catholicism only makes up 1/4 of the population as well. Where does Islam fit into the pie? Judaism? We are not even close to a spiritually homogenous society, and to pretend we are is a disservice to everyone.

ParaTed2k

on Sep 16, 2005

I think we all have the responsibility to vote and speak out according to the dictates of our own consciences. If that means we pray for help in making decisions, so be it... even if we are in government. Whether Christian, Pagan, Jew, Atheist.. whatever, our means of coming to our decisions are our own. We don't have the right to tell Prs. Bush not to invoke deity anymore than he has the right to tell us we can't.

Lee1776

on Sep 16, 2005

We don't have the right to tell Prs. Bush not to invoke deity anymore than he has the right to tell us we can't.

But we are not stopping Bush from invoking his faith, we are just asking for the Government not to sanction a religion or have us invoke a religion.

I have yet to find one supporter of the "Under God" statement added in 1954 to tell me how they would feel if "Under Allah" was in the pledge.

bakerstreet

on Sep 16, 2005

I agree with this blog. I don't think there's anything to fear of Christians or other religious people being involved and using their ideals to change the nation they live in. It's no different than the values of socially concious hippy-types, imho. If PETA folks can impose their values system, then anyone can.

BUT... that doesn't give anyone the right to bring religion into government. If you feel that life begins at conception, that isn't a church/state conflict. You can believe that and have no religion at all. The same goes for most religious values. With the whole 'pledge' conflict, that isn't an ideal, it is an actual imposition of the existance of God, which is completely different.

Rightwinger

on Sep 16, 2005

God has no place in the workings of law and government.

---Zoomba

I'm not talking about letting the country be run as a theocracy; that's wrong, and I have trouble remembering any successful and prosperous nations that operated as such.
There's nothing wrong, however, with allowing a deity, whichever one you personally choose to worship, to guide us in our choices and decisions. I know Christ was in favor of separation, or so it would seem, but that would be BASING a government on religion, having a theocracy, not having it as an aspect of government.

---PT2K

Exactly....that's what I'm talking about.

I have yet to find one supporter of the "Under God" statement added in 1954 to tell me how they would feel if "Under Allah" was in the pledge.

---Lee1776

I'll ask again, as I did over on Modman's thread: how about "under ~~a~~ God"? There's no offense in that statement, unless you're in the atheist minority.

jrutherchevy

on Sep 16, 2005

We don't fear God. We don't fear Religion. We only wish to live our lives without them being forced down our throats by fanatic fundamentalists and our government. The founders of our country strongly believed in the seperation of Church and State, and I don't see why we have to deviate from that now, in this day and age, when even though Christians are in the majority, diversity-cultural and religious, permeates our society.

Freedom of Religion also means Freedom from Religion.

Rightwinger

on Sep 16, 2005

The founders of our country strongly believed in the seperation of Church and State,

Only one that I'm aware of, Thomas Jefferson, actually made direct reference to a separation.
He, however, was a rabid secularist "Christian" who denied the Divinity of Christ, and published his own bible in whic he edited out the miracles, and even the Resurrection, of Jesus. I find his ideals a little suspect, based on his.

jrutherchevy

on Sep 16, 2005

Both Madison and Washington are noted to have upheld the theory of seperation as well.

Washington, in an address to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, Rhode Island: "It is now no more that tolerance is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgenced of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens. . ."

Moderateman

on Sep 16, 2005

I have a very powerful belief in GOD, I just think ALL ORGINIZED religion is wrong, anytime a sect tells anyone "this is the only way to GOD" you loose me.

ParaTed2k

on Sep 16, 2005

I have yet to find one supporter of the "Under God" statement added in 1954 to tell me how they would feel if "Under Allah" was in the pledge

Actually, when a Muslim says it, they are saying "Under Allah". My copy of The Holy Qur'an reads "God" in the english language column of every page that refers to Allah. The point is, no one is telling anyone what the words "under god" have to mean to them. When I say "under God" I mean my Father in Heaven. When a Muslim says it, he or she means "Allah", when an atheist says the word "god" it means nothing at all, so leaving "under god" out of it shouldn't matter.

What I'm getting from most the examples I'm reading is, the problem isn't as much that the pledge itself is unconstitutional, but that teachers, administrators and classmates are insisting everyone recite every word. Which goes beyond their authority.

shadesofgrey

on Sep 16, 2005

I'll ask again, as I did over on Modman's thread: how about "under ~~a~~ God"? There's no offense in that statement, unless you're in the atheist minority.

There is if you don't believe in God at all.

His ideals are suspect because he wasn't a christian (as you define it)? Yet, we've based on government on a series of documents that he wrote.

bakerstreet

on Sep 16, 2005

You'd find that a lot of muslims would refuse to say 'under Allah'. Christians toss the word "God" around haphazardly, but the Hebrew and Islamic tradition takes using the name of God very, very seriously. You see folks on the internet use "G-d", instead of "God" for that reason. As I said above, the whole religious patriot thing is very "Christian" in the US. The two should not be tied together officially.

"He, however, was a rabid secularist "Christian" who denied the Divinity of Christ, and published his own bible in whic he edited out the miracles, and even the Resurrection, of Jesus. I find his ideals a little suspect, based on his."

Well, then. That opens the door for you to reject these Constitutional mandates outright, then, doesn't it? Hell, if Jefferson is "suspect", why adhere to any of it at all? Who do you prefer, Alexander Hamilton?

Worse, you seem to be saying that anyone that holds these beliefs is of suspect religious character. I hope that is not what you are saying, because there are a lot of people of faith out there that don't see any problem with removing "under God" from the pledge. I'm one.

EmperorofIceCream

on Sep 16, 2005

The only passage in the above assorted bag of tawdry prejudice, partisan spleen, and general points-scoring that in any way addresses the actual issue at hand is this:

"It is now no more that tolerance is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgenced of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens. . ."

For those who don't understand the intersection of civics and religion (which would be all of you who have so far commented) let me put that issue plainly -

you don't need to be religious to be a citizen; but you have to be a citizen in order to live in a state capable of encompassing antagonistic religions within its body politic.

Whatever else that body politic is under it is most definitely under and subject to the State, whose only interest in the body of citizens is in whether or not they obey the law. As a private man a citizen may believe what he wishes. As a public man he must obey and uphold the law, and he must express in his life those principles which the term 'citizen' expresses.

Once you grasp these simple principles all the aggression, malice and confusion is drawn from the foolish and self-serving 'debate' between 'Left' and 'Right'.

But then, I'm talking to Americans of the present, who in general are so far degenerated from the standards of men such as Washington and Jefferson as to be barely worthy of the name.

bakerstreet

on Sep 16, 2005

"For those who don't understand the intersection of civics and religion (which would be all of you who have so far commented) let me put that issue plainly -

Ah, yes, EoIC returns to let us all know that we don't know anything. How wonderful that you are so enlightened. Just how does that happen, do you think? I think in the same way insane people feel that everyone else is insane...

It must really make your day to know that you are here to "put the issue plainly" for the multitudes. How about some fish and bread while you are enlightening us?

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