After all the lives lost...ours and theirs (a body count for them that far eclipses our 911 tragedy), I sure hope that democracy, peace, and prosperity will take root in Iraq.

However, I will not denounce my anti-war standing. I think the war was wrong. I just hope something good can eventually come from it.

What if things do not get better? I feel bad for the soldiers in Iraq, and I owe them a lot of gratitude. However, I am very upset that human life is being sacrificed in a country that could have handled it's own affairs. Why should it be our concern?

I assume you're talking to me. The simple answer is yes, if proven wrong I have absolutely no trouble in admitting my mistake, unlike most right wingers I see on these forums, who deny and refuse to admit being mistaken on matters that are documented, proven, and admitted. Imaginative title by the way, I can see that you're a truly free thinker. Definitely not gotten so use to parrotting what you read in right wing propaganda forums, television, radio and magazines, that it's just instinct now.

who's the wiseguy doing the censorship here?

What has been censored? Did you have a post deleted? Only person that it could be would be the thread starter, I doubt any admins would unless it was just a series of expletives, maybe when someone makes a reasonable argument against them, it's just easier to delete it than deal with the bothersome "facts" that seem to get in the way of modern right wing ideology.

At the risk of repeating myself, suppose there was someone staying in your family's house, who would, for a fact that you would come to know, cause the deaths of 10 people in the future (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there, because you have yet to have any facts on your side). Would you be ok with it if one day while you were out, I bombed your house, killing this person along with your entire family and any pets and possessions. Would you be ok with it because "it was for the greater good"? Maybe things will turn out ok, who knows? And who knows if things would have turned out even better if this war hadn't been waged? Does that mean that the people now should be grateful for what they're forced to endure?

I owe my existence to African slavery (since my father is descended from them)and persecution of eastern european Jews (since it force them to move to Australia and lead to the birth of my mother). All these are bad things that are responsible for me existing and yet I still won't praise the fact that they happened, despite the fact it worked out pretty well for me. The Iraq war will have negative effects that will last for years. Most likely this war will led to years of hatred towards western countries from islamic terrorist groups.
If the war results in a STABLE democracy I will praise the resilence of the Iraqi people not the belicosity of the US government.

If the war results in a STABLE democracy I will praise the resilence of the Iraqi people not the belicosity of the US government.

AMEN, to that. The war was wrong. Of that, I cannot see otherwise, and never will. I do hope that eventually the Iraqis move past their anger towards Americans, the death and destruction that they have endured over numerous regimes, and embrace a democracy and a mutual and self respect. But, unfortunately, I don't think it will result from the war. It will be because they are human, caring, and intelligent.

But, dubya dummy and his death cult followers will take credit for it no matter what. That's the irony.

To Rightwinger:

I think that killing for any purpose is wrong. How can I shoot someone and stop his/her heart. I think that human beings are really cruel to invent and use guns. I would never choose to be in the army. Though I said that I hoped for the safe return of the soldiers, but I only said that because I care for human life, not because I like their choice of career. On the other hand, they don't know better. From the time a person is born in the U.S., he/she hears the word "nationalism." I think that we should not be at war with one another. I can't imagine sleeping again if I fought in Iraq, the guilt and sadness would be overwhelming. It's sad that the current administration sent these poor souls to fight this war. I wish that I could erase all these soldiers' pains.
Would you want to go to Iraq? Would you send your children there? Think about it.

Heh...this is kind of funny. ACJ writes an article that brings out the righties, and I write an article from the other end, and bring out the libs.

ACJ: Yes, this was directed at you. And I wasn't trying to be orignial, thank you; I was deliberately trying to be derivative, so don't go getting all self-superior on me. As I said on your thread, I didn't even bother (at first) to read your whole long-winded, hateful diatribe (a word which, by the by, you can't spell without "d-a-b-e" ).
I got a couple paragraphs in, found it to be more of the same warmed-over lefty copmplaining (albeit with more than a dash more vitriole than I felt was needed) about the same ole same ole, and just gave up on it.
I'm honored that you seemed to take the time to read my whole piece, though. Thanks. I have now returned the favor (and still found it to be warmed-over hash, but I digress). At least you answered my question. Thank you, you're the only one. And just as an aside: your utterly humorless, pompous self-righteousness is typical of your particular breed of vicious liberal.

Tex: Good to see you.
I truly think something good will come of it, if we just give it due time and proper support (not necessarily the war itself, but the Iraqi democratic experiment in general). We in the States need to show the Iraqis that we're behind them as a people, not just as a government or its current administration.
By the way, not sure if you recall, but I asked months ago about how to acquire a POW/MIA ribbon magnet for my car. Thanks to you, I now sport not only a POW magnet, but a yellow "Pray for our Troops" one as well. Many thanks. Of course, by the time I finally got them, you could buy them all over the damn place, at maybe half the price I paid or less.

GV: What if, what if? What if I walk to the store...I could get hit by a bus and get killed. What if I don't walk to the store...I could run out of food and starve. You can't bog yourself down with "what ifs".....you can go on like that forever. Sometimes you have to act. We acted.
The world let Saddam slide by for 12 years on the "what ifs". Oh, well, yeah...here and there we'd lob a couple missles at his anti-aircraft emplacements or something, but nothing much really beyond that. We let him flout UN sanctions and watched as our "allies" aided and abetted him in order to profit. Finally, when it looked as though he really had something with which to cause real harm, we moved to block him. We were wrong. So sue us. We toppled a dictator and are trying to make life better for his victims.
Besides, if he HAD had them, had gotten the chance to use them, and Isreal or some other nation was now a smoking, radioactive crater or gassed-out, plague-ridden wasteland, everyone in the world would be asking why we didn't act sooner; you know they would.
I've said on another thread that I always felt that whole WMD thing was just a diversion, anyway, whether we actually believed the intell or not. George Jr. was cleaning up what the UN wouldn't allow George Sr. to do. Shoulda been done in '91.
You're a gentle soul, GV, and I respect that a lot. Your naivete bespeaks your youth, however. Do you, in your great comapssion, really feel that it was best to allow someone like Saddam to continue to ride roughshod over his nation until he died, and then to have one of his psycho sons take over and perhaps be worse? I can't belive that. What we're attempting to do now will result in the people of Iraq having something infinitely better than what they had.
I really hope you're able to maintain that gentle perspective throughout your life, but things often happen to or around us that begin to subtly alter our views. Hold onto who you are. I might disagree with you, but dammit, I like you.

Toblerone: I think you're argument is flawed. Are you trying to say only that two wrongs don't make a right?
Yes, there will be negative effects, which there were in Europe, for example, for years after the war. But still, in Germany now, for another example, there is a solid, stable democracy, where once there was an imperial monarchy and then a ruthless, brutal and bloodthirsty dictatorship. Whether you like to admit it or not, the "belicosity of the US government" is responsible for its being there.
We first had to go in (twice, actually, and with others, of course. But let's face it, WW2, at least, was an American war) and forcibly remove the old, then we had to pump in 13 billion (1940s) dollars to rebuild it, and then keep a military presence in place for four decades to safeguard it from outside invaders. We did it all, and German democracy today is strong and stable, as will be the Iraqi government if given the same proper support from not only the US government, but its people, too.
Children in the US made socks and sent toys, candy and chewing gum for the children in Germany. If we nuture democracy the same way in Iraq, we'll have the same result. You're a great candy bar, by the way.

dabe: I've seen many links on JU, and read articles by active-duty soldiers serving in Iraq, on here and other places, that attest to the fact that we have the affection and trust of the average Iraqi in the street. It's the insurgents, coming in from other countries, who continue to fight us.
Why is it such a bad thing to admit that, just maybe, things might be turning in our favor? Your angry, knee-jerk liberalism just won't let you see it. How sad.

GV: Yes, I would gladly go to Iraq....I'd likely be there now, in fact, if I hadn't had a seizure in basic training, which earned me a medical discharge.
I would proudly serve my country, and I would be proud if my children decided to join the military and stand up in defense of their country or someone else who needed it. I would grieve if they were killed, of course, but would still be proud of them for having had such courage.

I'd like to think that Iraq could become a stable and happy little democracy, but I don't know whether the US would ever tolerate that happening. It's hardly in its interests. Perhaps the average Iraqi loves having foreign soldiers on their soil, and would like nothing more than to be best friends with the US. I'm willing to accept that for the sake of the example.

But why on earth would that be acceptable to the US? Having a strong, democratic (and therefore independent) state in the Middle East with the strength of will and likely strength of arms to counter Israel, surrounded on all sides by fragile and increasingly dictatorial states, would likely lead to some sort of populist war to free the oppressed neighbours, a la France and Napoleon's wars, which although imperial in nature were justified through appeals to that populist feeling.

And that kind of Middle Eastern super-state would hardly be attractive to the US, would it? I think destabilisation is far too likely a gift for any burgeoning Iraqi state, but then perhaps I'm too much of a cynic to handle your idealistic perspective on the world.

I'm too much of a cynic to handle your idealistic perspective on the world.

And therein lies your problem.

All I hear, cacto, is "blah, blah, blah...."

Why is it so hard for those on the Left to believe that a sucessful democracy in Iraq might just spread, and take hold in the entire region? Is it because you don't want it to? That to see that happen would vindicate (not to mention validate) the "Chimp" and his vision, while shooting your visions of gloom and death all to shit?
How terrible a thing it is that you would deny an entire nation freedoms perhaps, given time, equal to our own just to hold onto your own petty beliefs.

You have different beliefs than I, but I think that you mean well.
I don't think that we are pessimistic because we want to hold on to our "petty beliefs." I think that we are realistic. If Iraq becomes this democratic country that you speak of, it would be the best experiment ever performed.
I wish the Iraqi people well, not to mention the soldiers. My argument is against killing, not whether or not the war was justified. It wasn't justified, but I am not a politician, and I never claimed to be, so it's really not my place to decide.
I would be very happy if Iraq became a democratic nation. I have more experience in terms of having lived in Haiti. I love my country. Former president Clinton did a wonderful job of sending American troops to Haiti, but you know what_ the troops couldn't stay forever. After awhile you run out of capital. It's not just a matter of spreading democracy; it has cost the U.S. billions and troops have died, not to mention that we were placed in a lot of danger. I understand that people shouldn't provoke theorist. I think that war was based on a bit of cockiness.
I would never say anything to insult President Bush. After all, he won the second election.



However, I can only comment on the war. I'd hate to judge the man by his father, and when his father was president I hadn't arrived here.
I like to judge people with very concrete evidences, and the war in Iraq is wrong because war is wrong and because it wasn’t even the country that attacked us!

Rightwinger:

Thanks to you, I now sport not only a POW magnet, but a yellow "Pray for our Troops" one as well. Many thanks. Of course, by the time I finally got them, you could buy them all over the damn place, at maybe half the price I paid or less.

I'm glad I could help. It's always best to try to get them from an FRG (Family Readiness Group) because the money goes to help the soldiers and their families, but that's not always an option if you don't leave near a military base. Glad you were able to get yours.

All I hear, cacto, is "blah, blah, blah...."

And all I hear from you is, "the world is full of peace and light, and the US is the lightbulb of this world, spreading peace and love to every corner of the globe. Why do they hate us when we are so beautiful?"

How about this - I won't make any further comments on any article you write (what's the point if it's all bla bla bla to you?) and I'll continue to be happy to hear anything you say on my threads, your threads or elsewhere. That way I won't bug you unnecessarily.